"*** off somewhere else then."
"Aaaaah, they're only kids, aren't they sweeeeeeeeeet!"
"How dare you insinuate that my offspring aren't the pride of humanity, I ought to smash your face in."
"I pity you, you poor, childless, loveless individual."
"Don't you understand? [beats breast and fights back tear] I'VE GOT KIDS!!!"
"Don't you think it's just as embarrassing for me?"
"Who are you to question me?"
"Oh, sorry. I'll make sure they behave in a less anti-social manner from now on."

One of these has never happened.

Good Lord, remind me never to frequent the pubs you go to.

In response to an earlier point raised:

A friend and I did say something to a group of children at the Dulwich Wood House who were using sticks to bang on a bin by our table, pretending it was a drum and deafening us in the process. After a few minutes of frenzied drumming which was drowning out our conversation we did think it a bit much!
We got a bored look from the parents who had been trying to ignore the whole episode anyway, and finally a 'yeah, alright' followed by some dirty looks when we asked them if they could deal with their children. At least they made a half-hearted attempt to acknowlege our situation because at the time we did feel we were likely to get some aggro. Would've been nice to get an apology but that was a bit much to expect.

Good, I am glad you took a stand. I think the old English reserve of grinning and baring with it does not help. The issue is with a small minority of parents who become both verbally and physically abusive. That's where the landlord/landlady should step in.

When I was young (just before I was sent up the chimney's on my day job) my parents had no problem with adults telling me off for being loud etc if for any reason they happened to be out of earshot. My, how times have changed.

Just to add that I have problems with this assumption that families are automatically going to be a 'civilising' influence on the rest of society. The example above should tell you that's not always the case.

Children in pubs at 10pm? Would it solve society's ills or simply be be open to abuse by parents who want to go out and get drunk and drag their kids along for the ride?

Just a thought.

The problem with us all trying to lump parent/non parents into one demagraphic is that there are always exceptions to the rule. The Spanish/French example has been used before and that is true for them. Here in the UK unfortunatly a lot of people who would go to the pub in the evening with kids will do so to get drunk thereby giving their children the impression that that is OK. There are the other parents who will go out to enjoy themselves, take enough entertainment material (i.e. drawing books etc) to ensure that children are catered for and all have a decent evening. I feel that dependent on the individual pub the two types of parents may not share the same pub and that's where you may meet the sullen/intimidating response to asking their spawn to keep it down.

I have witnessed a lot of poor behaviour by children of all ages, playing, screaming and running around both in restaurant and pubs. In all cases parents pretended not to see what was going on. The same happens very often on buses, trains and even airports in this country. So, no, I believe children should not be allowed in pubs because they are places for adults and those who have decided not to have children or to leave them with a babysitter for the evening should not put up with other children misbehaviour. I have been to Spain for the first time recently and it is indeed a good example how "family life" mixes with social life and drinking, there were babies and children with their parents and friends in bars, but they all drank and ate tapas and nobody got drunk, they did not stay more than an hour or two. Children were incredibly well behaved. On the other hand in our hotel there were a few British couples who allowed their children to run up and down the reception hall, throw themselves on the floors and generally scream. The parents seemed to think this was normal and were not bothered at all by the noise and general disturbance their children caused. The hotel staff seemed embarrassed as this was a five star establishment with mainly a business clientele. The same happened at the airport, especially at the check-in desks, only British children were seen running around and on the floor. Children can be taught to understand that sometimes it is boring to stay calm and quiet but they have to be obedient and not behave as they would at home, on the playground or in the park. Because there is a time and a place for everything. If your children are getting bored and start shouting and running around in the pub you should leave and take them to the park or back home. Alternatively you can teach them how to behave and have some respect for people around you. People with children do not have any superior rights over childless people.

When you have a baby these days, you get ?250 in a Child Trust Fund. How about if they raised that to, for example, ?1000, for parents who have attended a course of parenting classes?

Surely basic parenting knowledge and skills can be taught/learnt like any other subject. Obviously it'd cost a certain amount in tax but I suspect it'd make everyone a lot better off in terms of quality of life and would be a tax worth paying.

Great idea, Ooperlooper and I'd take it up, of course. Babies - and the children they grow up into - don't come with instructions! But so often with these things, they are least taken up by those who need them the most...

Nail, hit and head I believe!!

Eh? What does that mean, Londondrz?

Oh...do you mean I've 'hit the nail on the head'? I thought for a moment you felt like hitting nails into someone's (my?) head. Gulp.

Sorry, got it in the wrong order. Yes you hit the nail on the head with that comment. Mind you hitting a few of our less "engaging" locals might do some good.

Or how about if the Childlessness Tax was abolished altogether?

If the Child Trust cheque was raised to ?1000, I'd attend any course willingly to ensure my child benefitted long term. However the point about the contribution is that it is held in trust for the child until s/he is 18, so as its an incentive it may be a little long term for some parents to have an effect. Also, I am not sure the parents in question would be changed by any amount as most bad behaviour I have seen from accompanied children in public places has come from the middle and upper class sprogs, not people from the local Council estate.

What Millesens describes is to me a typical scene with many adult British holidaymakers abroad, not just their children. When we were in Barcelona a year ago we witnessed similar scenes in a hotel - plain embarrassing. The British abroad in Europe are generally not popular. It doesnt surprise me that the kids also run riot- they surely get it from their parents.

I still think the subject of this thread is a bit of a non issue- most people take children into pubs during the day, not the evenings, and drink filtered coffee or fruit juice whilst they read a paper or chat to their friends. Most will probably be very selective to go to a well known gastro pub or one which is family friendly. This is a change in culture largely due to extended opening hours and the smoking ban. The traditional boozers and child free boozing time are therefore probably safe for future generations. To avoid kids, go to the pubs they wouldnt touch, and stay at home on weekend lunchtimes. Please appreciate that people with kids also need to get out of the house.

I don't think anyone has said anything about 'people from the local Council estate' or anyone causing more trouble than anyone else. I would have thought almost everyone would like an extra ?1000 for their child's future, even if it is held in trust. There can't be many people who can't understand the idea behind that (even we Council estate underlings).

Whether or not the money would be in trust is really rather beside the point, actually. There's no reason the payment shouldn't be a lump sum paid immediately, really. The point is about incentivising people to learn how to be good parents, from which we could all benefit.

Don't think of it as a childlessness tax, Baboonery. Think of it as an investment in the workforce whose taxes will pay for civic amenities after you've retired.

Thank you for such a sober and reasonable reply Roz.

Plus, why should I and other childless people have to pay to educate these children via our taxes ? Parents should pay the full cost of their offsprings education, not us !

Ian - Telling it like it is.

More tear-in-the-eye hogwash. If I'm thinking of it as anything other than a Childlessness Tax (to be supplemented by Cameron's Singledom Tax if that shower get in, "I want to redistribute income away from people like you and towards people like me!"), I'm thinking of it as a "Let's have loads of 18-year-olds irresponsibly driving unsafe old cars" tax.

So, in order that you don't have to show the slightest bit of consideration for others around you, you get the right to order me to stay at home?!