What an odd discussion. BaggyDave defends the reasonable side of the argument!???

I have to live in hope that the comments by certain individuals who do not care for children in their drinking establishments are doing this simply to be willingly controversial.

Why do we have a problem drinking culture in the UK (and a reasonable chunk of Northern Europe)? I'd suggest that the fact that people seem to think that there ought to be adult-only vice-den-like escapes from reality ("What? People have kids these days? Never!") simply underlines the fact that we treat alcohol, and the places that serve it, as "escape" rather than an integral part of our lives.

THERE IS, AND SHOULD NEVER BE, A PLACE WHERE YOU GET AWAY FROM FAMILY LIFE. If you think there is, then I pity you. You don't have to deal with them, you don't have to educate them, you don't even need to respond to them. But if you cannot deal with there being a younger child, one who has yet to become as educated, intelligent, and cynical as you, then I suggest that you look within yourself first before blaming the child or the parent.

Having said all this (largely in response to the frankly outrageous posts by some), I do think that some parents underestimate the willingness of children to learn to behave properly in the right circumstances. They need to learn about context, and it is up to the parents to establish this. Yes, it is annoying and time-consuming when you'd rather be relaxing with a pint, but we all share these common spaces (not just pubs, but parks, buses, etc.).

Do we REALLY need to go into this on SE23.com?

I must admit there are many things I take for granted in life, and even enjoy, and one of them is kids having fun, AND BEING KIDS! If you have forgotten about that, maybe you want to think back a little?

I probably shouldn't post this (having consumed my unfair share of a bottle of wine already), but I do find some of these posts rather annoying.

Ian, Baboonery and others, please get in touch with me directly. I have a 3 year old daughter who would like to give you a "huggle" because "you are feeling sad". You'd be amazed how different, and better, the world seems after that!

Agree with you largely, RobW, apart from the bit where you say there "should never be a place where you can get away from family life." I can think of lots of places kids should never be allowed anywhere near, but where adults should be free to enjoy themselves. As for pubs and kids? Let the market decide!

I don't disagree that there are things that are inappropriate for kids, but they shouldn't be seen as a refuge from families. Should they? Sorry, getting all soppy in my old age

Apologies, missed the apostrophe off winter's.

BD, knowing when to own up and when to be quiet

I don't know, Rob. It's about ambience sometimes, I think. And sometimes kids aren't quite the...well, ambience you're looking for! But as long as there are plenty of places where you can get what suits you (and there are), then no-one should get hot and bothered I certainly agree that being virulantly anti-kid is unhelpful.

Sorry Rob, I stand by my last post.
And forget the huggs, I might go soft (heaven forbid)

I DO NOT WANT CHILDREN IN A PUB.

I had a great childhood, but the law then was children were not aloud in pubs, and didn't they invade adult space and that's what I want now I'm older.

May I suggest that all parents take your children outside into the garden/trendy deck area
and the turn the gas powered heaters on full blast for a happy family experience which doesn't infringe on those of us that want some peace and quite while we have a few pints inside the pub.

And before anyone asks...NO, I haven't got kids and never wanted them.
Which means when I get older, I'll be a very sad lonley old man drinking
real ale (not lager) but hopefully NOT smelling of urine !!
I might even become grumpy as well.

[quote=Ian]
Sorry Rob, I stand by my last post.
And forget the huggs, I might go soft (heaven forbid)

I DO NOT WANT CHILDREN IN A PUB.

I think following the smoking ban, it is unrealistic to not cater for children in pubs. More families will go, and with them bring another source of revenue. The Honor Oak has gone for this in a big way and is reaping the rewards. The Woodhouse are completely hypocritical saying they cannot allow children for insurance reasons. The main reason is that they want to continue to cater for incontinent adults alone. However I think they'll find out eventually that this is a shrinking market. They could easily provide for an adults only area plus a family area in that pub but they choose not to.

I still think its not kids per se that is the problem but their behaviour. French kids are always welcome in the best restaurants as they are taught how to behave from an early age. They can let off steam when they go back to the kiddy world, but restaurants are adult zones where good behaviour is expected, and from observation, this seems to work.

When we went on holiday in the summer to Dorset we took our child to all sorts of places and pubs - we had to in order to eat; the reception at some was frosty to say the least even though our baby was fast asleep and bothering no one. Mostly however she was well received even when crying. The remarkable thing was that we rarely saw other babies of her age ( then three months) out and about, which makes me wonder whether people of very young children hibernate for the first few months.

Oh spare me your pity and your patronising sentimentalist tosh, RobW! What a load of nonsense.

I suppose the next time you get on a bus and there's a youth behind playing music out on his phone, it'll be fine?

Poorly controlled children are a noise nuisance. If you can't understand that, then you're beyond help.

I fail to see why the fact that a pub serves food should immediately turn it into a glorified ball pool. Do adults not eat too?

Incredibly arrogant, I have to say. It's fine for you not to escape your family life. When you start imposing your family life on me, you've crossed a line.

I think everyone may need a time out on the naughty step here.

Surprised at the vehemence of the arguments here. Personally I have no problem with kids and I have no objections whatsoever to them being in the pub. But in line with a lot of the more reasonable views above, I recognise that a pub is not a creche (and bar staff are not nannies or childminders) and should not be treated as one. Apart from anything else, there tends to be a lot of glass and sharp corners on tables and things which ought to preclude the more boisterous behaviour. But the responsibility for the behaviour lies with the supervising parents/adults - not the kids themselves.

There are different sorts of pubs - the Honor Oak has been fairly open about their wish to attract the family crowd. And fair play to the Jamies, they have also been quite clear about the limits in terms of time and behaviour - even if this hasn't always been enforced. Other pubs (whatever excuse they use) have different views - the Herne Tavern has turned their back garden into something directly aimed at getting kids in and giving them something active to do, as far as I can see. As a few people have pointed out, the Dulwich Wood House seems to have a special on having their cake and eating it.

One of the great things about pub culture in this country (contrast, for example, the US) is that local pubs can be, and often are, great, welcoming, sociable places which enhance the community.

Parents, kids, cantankerous and possibly incontinent old men (youths with loud tinny mp3 players on buses might be added to this list) - in the end it comes down to consideration for others, surely? I'm all for kids of whatever age being taken to the pub - but isn't it reasonable that they learn that you behave differently there than you would at playschool? As someone who was taken to the pub a lot as a kid, I know it meant that by the time I was a teenager and approaching legal drinking age, there wasn't any mystique around the pub/drinking, which is probably a good and healthy thing - certainly it was in my case.

Anyway, to lighten the mood, a link to show how it could be worse...

I was going to put that link in as well! You beat me to it. Poor farting old man. At least he claims his farts aren't smelly.

Just so you know, I didn't swear. For some reason the other word for flatulence was banned.

Blimey how did asking for a bit of consideration translate into hating children?

Previous discussions on here inevitably produce the same reaction. I think there is a problem with the behaviour of *some* children, however I don't blame them but those parents who simply let them get on with it and I've seen this happen many times in pubs.
I've had one child try and climb on my lap while I was eating a meal! I suppose I should take it as a compliment that I'm not scaring them off - but when this happened the parent looked on adoringly at their offspring and did nothing - because obviously they were just 'expressing themselves'.
I'm very considerate to parents, I don't hesitate to open doors for pram users or move to a smaller table if they need mine etc but in return I also expect a bit of consideration. Is that a bad thing? And by the way, I'm not a 'child-hater'

Also sometimes we do need an adult only space to let off steam and dare I say it use language or talk about certain subjects that aren't quite savoury for children's ears.

I realise the pub market is changing but there is an assumption on these threads that if you don't like the noise of children running around in a pub there is something wrong with you which is not helpful or fair.

Hear hear.

I was just saying that I have yet to witness mobs of yelling children running riot in pubs at a level that deserves the amount of distaste displayed in this forum. That said, having a child, who is not yours, try and sit on your lap while you are eating is unacceptable, and shocking that the parents did nothing.

However, I have also had people move tables in a noisy huff because I dared to bring a sleeping, and slient baby, into a pub on a Sunday afternoon. These tend to be the same people who take on a look of horror when you take a child on a bus, train, pavement, supermarket basically any place in public when they might be within ten feet of a (no, don't say it!!!!) a child!

When you have kids you slowly come to the realisation that there are people in this world that just hate children. And there is nothing you can do about. (except, of course letting them run riot in pubs to spoil their afternoons...sorry, that was a joke)

Fair enough Elizabeth, I can't speak for everyone and perhaps there are some who really don't like children no matter how well they behave but that's not been my experience.
I think most people I've spoken to simply take issue with certain types of behaviour that goes unchallenged by some parents. Times have changed and maybe we need to think of better ways to accommodate both families and adults without children so they can co-exist more harmoniously. In smaller pubs that is going to be more difficult.

I would go clubbing or join a private drinkers club to solve the problem but I'm far too old for the first and too poor for the second!

Not a fan of kids in pubs either: two years ago two sweet little boys (probably 5 or 6) were playing in the middle of the pub we were in while the parents were having a drink with friends. For a strange reason, but as kids do, one of them decided to take one shoe from the other and to swing the shoe by the laces in an helicopter fashion. Said shoe ended up flying to our table and took all the glasses on the table with much spillage and broken glass ensuing. The parents were eventually found and appologised and left the pub very embarrassed. The drinks had already been replaced by the landlords. Since then I don't really feel confident with kids running around pubs. If they are sat at a table and quiet then great but if they are not we usual leave the pub and take our business elsewhere. A pub is not a play area. However if the kids are there to have a meal with the parents and well behaved I can see reason but in my experience kids get bored in pub (when not allowed to run around) and trouble or tantrums usual follow.

But that's just the point - it should not turn into a glorified ball pool, just because there children there. As someone has already pointed out, these are "adult" spaces and kids should behave accordingly. If a pub has put play equipment in the garden, then fair enough. But otherwise, I expect them to sit and eat/drink quietly. Like roz, we usually only take the boys into a pub when out and about, as somewhere for a reasonably priced, fuss free meal - hence the no food, no kids suggestion. Like ghis says, they can get bored and fidgety - which happened to us in Hastings recently when it took over an hour to produce our order of fish & chips and ploughmans, but we managed to restrain the little darlings from trashing the place.