SE23.com - The Official Forum for Forest Hill & Honor Oak, London SE23
Online since 2002  -  10,000+ members

Home | SE23 Topics | Local Businesses | Wider Topics | Offered/Wanted/Lost/Found | Site Feedback | Advertising | Contact
Geddes Hairdressing & Barbering Studio One Armstrong & Co Solicitors


Post Reply  Post Topic 
Pages (2): « First < Previous 1 [2] Last »
Church submits planning application for CP cinema
Author Message
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #21
05-11-2009 12:47 PM

The Kingsway International Christian Centre is the fastest growing Pentecostal church in Europe. It currently holds 6 back to back services every Sunday from it?s north London HQ in Hoe Street Walthamstow, also an old cinema building but smaller than the one in CP in that it can only hold 1,000. 77% of the 6,000 congregants who travel to Hoe Street use cars, even though it has better public transport, ie there?s a tube, than CP.

The church wants to relocate it?s entire congregation from Wimbledon, where it?s been established for 13 years. It also says in its application it will be drawing congregants from across all of south London and the Home Counties. It will also be moving its Tooting offices to CP and calling it the South of England HQ.

Every weekend 9am till 1am services, weddings and other events such as miracle anointing nights ( these can go on all night) will also take place. The sound systems the church uses are massive, as music is a very important part of the service, as are large gatherings. They hold regular sold out events at the Excel Centre for 12,000 to 20,000 people. Super sized amps, PA system & a forty strong choir is going to raise the roof off 25 Church Road but the traffic and parking problems that will occur will have knock on effect on surrounding areas. Say each service of 1150 attracts 500 cars, it is likely that at least 200 of these will be approaching CP from the Forrest Hill/Sydenham direction, as many congregants will be travelling from the borough of Lewisham. They will all be arriving and leaving at the same time, so you can imagine the congestion and pollution this will cause to surrounding area.

The church?s needs do not sit well in a venue surrounded by residential housing, a congested one way system and a total lack of parking spaces. The church is very wealthy and it would be better for all parties if it were to find a building, with parking and sound proofing, away from residential housing and nearer the community it seeks to serve. The current proposal is unsustainable and will prove to be an environmental nightmare for the local areas.

Find all posts by this user Reply
shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #22
05-11-2009 01:27 PM

Makes the Jerk Cookout look like a walk in the park Crying

Where do I sign?

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #23
05-11-2009 03:37 PM

I trust you mean sign to support the Picture Palace Campaign, if so please check out the link at beginning of this thread. The PPC site has everything you need to know re progress & petitions.

If however if that post made you want to join the rapidly expanding KICC, then I've clearly shot meself in the foot! My advice would be to check out the web site and be prepared to be tithed 10% of your disposable income and don't forget your credit card or cheque book when attending services. Instead of collection boxes credit card machines are passed from pew to pew.

How else can the Pastor's salaries of ?100,000 per annum (?35,000 more than the Archbishop himself) plus the private jets & other luxuries be funded?

Find all posts by this user Reply
essjaygee


Posts: 49
Joined: Jan 2007
Post: #24
09-11-2009 11:16 AM

Signed. I've just moved nearer to CP so even more interested in future developments.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #25
24-05-2010 03:17 PM

Hi everyone, here is the latest news from the Picture Palace Campaign:

The deadline for any KICC appeal against Bromley’s decision is Monday 21 June 2010. In anticipation of the appeal deadline both the South London Press and the Streatham Guardian[i] had been in touch with the KICC’s planning agent, Broadway Malyan, who has stated clearly that the KICC is not going to appeal but the church has not decided what to do with the building and is looking into the possibility of turning it into an entertainment venue within its existing D2 use class – leisure/entertainment.

It is impossible for us to know the true position. However, when the KICC’s agent was lobbying Bromley planning committee members back in December, he made a couple of very similar written statements (we have highlighted key points in bold):

“It is worth noting the unrestricted nature of the permitted use could mean that the site is used more intensively i.e. additional seating and standing capacity introduced so that the building could hold numbers way in excess of the current 1150 capacity limit without any need for planning permission. It could also be used for other permitted uses including a dance hall, concert venue etc all uses with the potential to cause significant noise/disturbance and parking problems in the local area.

KICC as the legal owners and a responsible organisation will simply use the building for some of its activities in line with the present approved use should planning permission be denied. The consequences of this is that the building will only be occupied for between 3-4 hours on a couple of days during the week compared to the proposed 7-day a week programme (both during the day and into the evening) put forward as part of this application. This reduced programme would also limit the level of investment that could be set aside to refurbish this building.”

So, what does this mean for the campaign? Is the KICC appealing or not? We won’t know the position until the deadline has passed, but for the time being we have to take this at face value. In the hope that what the KICC’s agent has said is true, we have issued the following statement:

“The Picture Palace Campaign welcomes the KICC’s recognition that a D2 leisure/entertainment use is best for No.25 Church Road. We would appreciate an opportunity to work with the church to ensure any future developments are discussed with the whole community in mind, so that all local people can benefit. Meanwhile, we will continue to campaign for a local cinema and strongly feel that 25 Church Road - as the only heritage leisure/entertainment site in the vicinity - is the best possible location for this and moreover is key to the economic, social, cultural and physical regeneration of Church Road and the entire district centre. We hope the KICC will enter into discussion with a leading cinema provider so this can be delivered.”

In the event the church does submit a last minute appeal, the Crystal Palace Triangle Planning Group (CPTPG), which represents the campaign on planning matters, is in the process of instructing legal counsel – a planning barrister – to assist the campaign. The CPTPG will also seek counsel’s advice should any proposals come forward from the KICC to use the building for a limited number of events, including using it as an occasional concert venue.

Please keep checking our website http://www.picture-palace.org, the Picture Palace Campaign Facebook site and http://www.virtualnorwood.com for updates and events. And do continue to let us know your thoughts and any ways in which you would like to help us. Many thanks again for your fantastic support.

Find all posts by this user Reply
sydenhamcentral


Posts: 269
Joined: Mar 2008
Post: #26
24-05-2010 06:42 PM

“It is worth noting the unrestricted nature of the permitted use could mean that the site is used more intensively i.e. additional seating and standing capacity introduced so that the building could hold numbers way in excess of the current 1150 capacity limit without any need for planning permission. It could also be used for other permitted uses including a dance hall, concert venue etc all uses with the potential to cause significant noise/disturbance and parking problems in the local area.

This reduced programme would also limit the level of investment that could be set aside to refurbish this building"

To me that sounds like "If you don't let us have our church we will make it difficult for everyone who lives in the area and we will leave the building looking like a tip".

Which sounds more like the attitude of Tesco than a Church. Shame on them. There are plenty of other buildings they could inhabit.

Find all posts by this user Reply
gingernuts


Posts: 505
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #27
24-05-2010 06:53 PM

Call themselves Christains! Dont be bullied by these people. Doesnt the Council have a responsibility to ensure commercial property isnt left in a poor state of repair and just becomes a public eyesore?

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #28
24-05-2010 07:36 PM

I agree it's very, very worrying. Work began on the interior of 25 Church Road on Saturday. Residents reported seeing sound insulation equipment being taken inside the building. The concern here is this building has never been used as a music venue in it's history and the existing sound and fire proofing are dated. When it operated as a bingo hall the sound of the caller's voice could be heard in nearby homes and gardens, the huge amps and PA systems that KICC use will need specialist sound proofing. Let's hope the system they're installing is ab;e to contain the noise they'll be producing.

There's also a public safety issue in that the current entrance/exit is too small for a venue proposing to be 2,000 capacity and it opens directly on to very narrow pavements and a bus stop! The doors and surrounding pavements could barley cope with the sudden exit of 500 people. It would be impossible to vacate the venue quickly and safely in an emergency if the volume of people the venue can take is to be increased beyond 1150. The Crystal Palace Triangle Planning Group are monitoring the situation and have notified Bromley building control and licensing departments today.

It's worth mentioning that the KICC's agents indicated that if they couldn't use 25 Church Road as a music venue then they would have to rethink their strategy. City Screens still want to buy the building. KICC are a registered charity, they bought the building out of charitable funds. The Charities Commission insists that charities invest money in projects that directly benefit the purpose of that charity. It remains to be seen how a nightclub will further the cause of a religous charity.

Find all posts by this user Reply
roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #29
24-05-2010 07:50 PM

Unfortunately this was always one of the many potential outcomes resulting from opposition to the church's ambitions. They won't have their church, but they still own the building and probably need to get a return on their investment pretty quickly. I don't think they should be lambasted for trying to dig themselves out of the commercial hole in which they seem to have been landed in. Its questionable who has been trying to bully who to be honest and a salutory lesson for anyone campaigning against any particular use - you may end up with something less desirable entirely either by design or default.

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #30
24-05-2010 10:10 PM

The KICC are a multimillion pound organisation Roz, one of the richest and fastest growing branches of Christianity in Europe. 25 Church Road is an excellent investment for the church, it went for a song for a building of it's size and position and no one is lambasting them for trying to dig themselves out of a commercial hole. They could sell up to City Screens tomorrow and turn a tidy profit for their troubles then send their agents out to buy a suitable building in the right use class and position for their needs. Instead they seek to increase the capacity of the building and turn it into a music venue knowing full well that the reason they were refused change of use was due to the traffic impact of a congregation of 500 on the area. Statements of intention to run the venue with capacity audiences of above 1150 do not come across as reasonable at all.

A campaign is intended to mobilize public support and use democratic tools such as lobbying in order to instigate social change.

Bullying is a form of abuse. It comprises repeated acts over time that involves a real or perceived imbalance of power with the more powerful individual or group abusing those who are less powerful. The victim of bullying is sometimes referred to as a target.

CP was the territory that was targeted by a powerful, multimillion pound religious organisation. The PPC evolved when the not so rich and powerful community came together to exercise their democratic right to fight for the future of their neighbourhood. It is important that this is not confused or spun as bullying.

Find all posts by this user Reply
sydenhamcentral


Posts: 269
Joined: Mar 2008
Post: #31
25-05-2010 01:21 AM

The church bought the cinema building without getting permission for change of usage to start with Roz.

5000 local people signing a petition saying they would rather have a cinema which they don\t have than a church that few local would choose and that there are already 11 of in close vicinity isn't bullying is it Roz? It's called the will of the people isn't it Roz? The good of the local community should always come above the money of a powerful organisation shouldn't it?

I bought some shares in a company that went under. I lost my money. I'd love a return on it, but I made a mistake. The KICC also made a mistake. They should admit that, sell it and move on.

Find all posts by this user Reply
roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #32
25-05-2010 09:18 PM

It may be a powerful organisation, but its not trying to sell drugs to our children or get us to gamble our money on the stock market. Its a church.
And the owners/users have and had a right to apply for planning permission to achieve their aspirations. Thats all they've done.

Find all posts by this user Reply
Captain Nemo


Posts: 1
Joined: May 2010
Post: #33
26-05-2010 12:16 AM

Sorry roz
it may be a church in the legal sense but if you look closer I think you'd find a lot of objectionable elements in their philosophy and nothing vaguely "Christian" about them - see the Charity Commission Investigation and the funds repaid by their "Pastor", their ways of raising funds from the poorest people in the community, their intolerance of a diverse community (particularly appropriate in Crystal Palace) to mention but a few...
I think you may want to read up on the KICC before you keep defending them - after all there are something like 11 other churches up there in the immediate vicinity that have never prompted any objections by local residents - they are not driven as commercial projects with the objective of "Taking Territories"!

Find all posts by this user Reply
sydenhamcentral


Posts: 269
Joined: Mar 2008
Post: #34
26-05-2010 08:52 AM

Of course they have the right to apply. I totally agree.

But is it right that they seem to be saying that if you don't give it to us we will leave the building looking shabby? Is it right that they are saying if you don't give us planning permission they will make it an entertainment venue and play loud music?

I don't.

I also think it's the local peoples right to have some say in what happens in their local area, to be able to influence the type of businesses that THEY want. Don't you Roz?

I also think it's up to the local authority to take all this into account and to be able to reject any businesses application for planning permission on the grounds that it is not in the best interests of the local community, be it a church or a supermarket or whatever...

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #35
26-05-2010 12:55 PM

The KICC preach the prosperity gospel. One of the corner stones of this theology is basically the more money you have the closer to God you are. Followers of prosperity gospel religions tend to opt for outward shows of wealth, such as expensive clothes, cars, jewellery to convey the message to across others that God loves them more. The flip side of this is belief is that God does not love the sick and the poor as much as the wealthy and healthy.

Please check out the following link for a greater understanding of the prosperity gospel. It was made by the BBC's religion and ethics programme Heart & Soul and provides an interesting insight into this world. The clip from the radio show is about 15 mins long but makes fascinating listening. The speakers are a number of pastors and congregants and the programme makers do not spin it they simply record the enthusiasm and comments of participants. Anyone who would like an greater understanding of this concept should pop kettle on, make a nice cuppa tea, then sit back relax and think about life, the universe et al:

http://www.jonathanlwalton.com/Site/Blog...im_It.html

Find all posts by this user Reply
roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #36
26-05-2010 10:20 PM

I think its a mistaken view that believes that the planning system can make qualitative judgements on applications - it can't; all objections and refusals must be based on the appropriate and relevant planning considerations, and only exceptionally in the community interest. Tyson Road is a case in point. 'Technically' the right decision was made in the end but whether it is an overall plus for the community remains to be seen and it probably wasn't. However that is not the role of the planning system which like our legal system is based on the equity principle ie balance of interests between individual, state and society.

The licensing system perhaps offers greater protection in that a building designated by planning as a nightclub must meet stringent operational requirements that are frequently updated to accord with elf and safety and enables more targetted opposition than the planning system.
I suspect that the building would need considerable adaptation if it is to operated as a nightclub, some of which may actually require planning permission which is not always easy to get.

Find all posts by this user Reply
Crystal Palace Park


Posts: 10
Joined: May 2010
Post: #37
26-05-2010 10:37 PM

Thank you for your advice Roz - come and join the campaign - you'd be very welcome - especially with your knowledge of the licensing requirements for elves!

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #38
29-05-2010 11:53 AM

The KICC's application for change of use of the only D2 (entertainment) venue in town to be made into the 17th D1(religious or health centres), was heard and turned down because the aspirations for the use of the venue contravened National, London and local planning policies.

This latest proposal to increase audience capacity and use the building as a music venue will also need to go through due process in order to get a license to operate. An application will need to be made and the local community and police will be consulted before the licensing authority decide. Fortunately it is not simply a matter of they can do what they like cos they own it.

However all this could have been avoided if there were some sort of public body to oversee the flogging of public landmarks and buildings to ensure that they remain within public service and do not fall into the hands of corporate companies, commercial or religious. What has happened here is a fine example of how key public facilities (parks or buildings) are vulnerable when left to the hands of market forces eg the only public entertainment venue in town is taken out of general, local, community use with the intention of opening it up to a large external congregation from a huge catchment area (Home Counties, South West & East London). City Screens would have served the existing community by creating a new D2 use, cinema, on the High Street and that would have had a regenerative affect on shops and restaurants.

The venue has no parking. The KICC congregants are notorious for high car useage. To cater for this he KICC have drawn up a target parking zone, all residential roads within an 800m radius. Well good luck to them, because I know what it's like to park round here and I can't imagine where the fleets of cars bringing the thousands of "concert" goers are going to park. The best will in the world, or even the almighty himself, will not be able to magic up a space round this neck of the Great North Woods for love nor money!

Find all posts by this user Reply
chick pea


Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #39
17-06-2010 05:01 PM

It's official KICC will not be appealing. Here's the Picture Palace Campaign's response to today's Streatham Guardian article:

The Picture Palace campaign (PPC) is delighted to learn that the KICC does not intend to appeal and has finally acknowledged that the local wishes and views of 3500 residents who objected to the change of use application, and the views of Bromley, Croydon and Lambeth councils should be respected.

We also welcome KICC's further indication that the church is now considering a variety of building use options that will most benefit the whole community. We now expect KICC to follow up on this commitment by entering into meaningful dialogue which will lead to action which reflects the interests and concerns of the whole community, rather than a particular group.

The PPC wishes to work with KICC to find a mutually acceptable outcome but one which also clearly recognises that 25 Church Road should only be used for permissible activities which contribute to the cultural and economic regeneration of 25 Church Road and the town centre.

We hope that KICC will now respect the fact that the building's D2 classification will only allow for permissible uses such as a cinema, concert hall, bingo hall or casino, or dance hall.

Our ambition to develop a professional run cinema to provide a sorely needed cultural resource for the whole community is shared by others.

Almost 7,000 members of the local community signed our petition supporting our campaign which is also being followed by facebook groups with over 6,000 members from across the world.

The UK's leading independent cinema provider has confirmed interest in the site and we would hope that KICC will enter into discussions with them.

Find all posts by this user Reply
sydenhamcentral


Posts: 269
Joined: Mar 2008
Post: #40
17-06-2010 05:15 PM

Great news.

WowThumbsup

Find all posts by this user Reply
Pages (2): « First < Previous 1 [2] Last »

Friends of Blythe Hill Fields