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Poll: Should the Jerk Cookout at the Horniman be relocated elsewhere in the future?
This poll is closed.
Yes 32.84% 22 32.84%
No 32.84% 22 32.84%
Keep at Horniman only if transport and security issues are addressed 34.33% 23 34.33%
Total 67 votes 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #1
10-08-2009 06:06 PM

[Admin note: Poll is now cancelled - click here for the replacement poll.]
________________________________

Should the Jerk Cookout at the Horniman be located elsewhere in future?

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admin
Administrator

Posts: 393
Joined: Dec 2002
Post: #2
10-08-2009 07:19 PM

To avoid duplication of comments, would members please use this thread for voting only.
Comments are welcome in the existing discussion of the Jerk Cookout in the Horniman Museum and Gardens thread.
Thanks.

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roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #3
11-08-2009 12:09 PM

It would be nice if the voters were divided into further categories ie those who were actually personally adversely affected on Sunday and those who live far enough away up other steep hills not to have been so, or even those who were actually away at the weekend hence this issue would be a mere abstract concept.

I would bet that anyone else directly affected by both traffic and pedestrians would be avidly voting for relocation!

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michael


Posts: 3,217
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #4
11-08-2009 12:47 PM

Thank you Roz for discounting my voteCursing. I assume that the fact that I enjoy attending events like this in Forest Hill gives me no right to have an opinion which differs from yours.

Roz previously said:

Quote:
...the various interest groups , largely of white middle class origin, of people who are seasoned campaigners of this and that, represent the vocal minority only and not the bulk of the public whom the pool would serve.


So let's not only divide people by how close they live, but by ethnicity. I am sure this will show that those complaining are largely of white middle class origin, of people who are seasoned campaigners of this and that, represent the vocal minority only and not the bulk of the local population whom the Jerk festival serves.

The more you divide up the results of this badly worded poll, the more likely you are to be able to prove that you are the majority of your vocal minority.

And I think it is a shame that this poll has not been anonymised and that everybody's vote is public. I don't mind but others might, and it allows people to discount the votes of others who are less worthy of the vote than themselves.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #5
11-08-2009 01:27 PM

Can we calm down a bit? Don't answer the ruddy poll. Reword it. Whatever you like. Start a new one. I'm not an expert in constructing poll questions.

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roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
11-08-2009 01:57 PM

Until NM's post I didn't know the names were attached, Michael so I had no idea who had voted for what, and I certainly was not thinking of you in particular or suggesting that your vote be discounted- there are lots of hills around here and it was a generic statement anyway.

I still think the extent to which some were directly affected will determine their vote and feelings on the matter and I see nothing wrong with that or suggesting that their views be given greater consideration. If I lived half way down Perry Vale or somewhere similar , or as said previously, had been away and missed the whole thing, I would no doubt be voting for its retention for economic and social benefits, being completely oblivious to the side effects experienced by others. No apologies if my preference sides with my family's needs rather than the economic future of Forest Hill.

No doubt I've caused great offence now to the Perry Valers and await similar responses as to Michael's.

I also look forward to the Hornimans response and proposals for future events.

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roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
11-08-2009 02:36 PM

PS My concern relates to any large event being proposed by the Horniman not just the Cook Out. Whatever level of regard we hold the Gardens in, it is simply not built or designed to be a major entertainment venue attracting thousands at a time. Any events should be within the scale and scope of its amenities and surrounding areas.

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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #8
11-08-2009 02:47 PM

Well, the wording confused me - to such an extent that I voted the wrong way and clicked Yes, when I meant No (so perform the mental calculations to re-jig the vote.

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the_emu


Posts: 10
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #9
12-08-2009 08:09 AM

I too was confused by the change in question and voted the wrong way - I meant no !!!! Unsure

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Contrary Mary


Posts: 124
Joined: Oct 2008
Post: #10
12-08-2009 09:21 AM

The way I read this question (and I had to do at least one double-take):

1) If you DON'T think the Cookout should be in Forest Hill, vote YES
2) If you DO think the Cookout should be in Forest Hill, vote NO
3) If you DON'T think it should be in Forest Hill UNLESS THERE ARE TRAFFIC IMPROVEMENTS, vote #3

Or to put it another way:

1) If you want it to MOVE, vote YES
2) If you want it to STAY, vote NO
3) If you want it to STAY, BUT WITH TRAFFIC IMPROVEMENTS, vote #3.

Hope this helps.

Nevermodern, for future polls: Problem seems to me to be that although the question and options are in themselves logical, they are severely counter-intuitive in relation to the issue as a whole. Having to say 'NO' to make a positive statement, or 'YES' to make a negative one is not how the human brain naturally works.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #11
12-08-2009 12:05 PM

I utterly take your point. Being a psephological (!) virgin, I rushed it a bit. Don't be too harsh on me!

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michael


Posts: 3,217
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
12-08-2009 12:38 PM

So far the results seem about as conclusive as a Lewisham Council 'consultation' exercise.
I suggest we move the festival to Willow Way.

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gingernuts


Posts: 505
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #13
13-08-2009 06:39 PM

Only if we can build a housing estate in the park to pay for it!

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kipya


Posts: 62
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #14
14-08-2009 04:21 PM

Yep. I've just voted the wrong way too.Mad I thought I was voting "yes" to keep it. So the totals are wrong and the "Noes" should outnumber the "Yeses".

It's like one of those LBL consultations over the pools.

Since the vote is public then there should be a way of correcting it.

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admin
Administrator

Posts: 393
Joined: Dec 2002
Post: #15
14-08-2009 04:28 PM

If nevermodern wishes, the poll can be cancelled and a new one opened, as long as there's agreement from members on the question and answers.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #16
14-08-2009 04:58 PM

I'm more than happy to cancel.

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admin
Administrator

Posts: 393
Joined: Dec 2002
Post: #17
14-08-2009 05:06 PM

Ok, the poll is now closed and member names removed.
Suggestions for a replacement poll are invited here from members.
Please also state whether you'd prefer member names to be shown or hidden.
Hopefully the new poll can be started in the next day or two.

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Contrary Mary


Posts: 124
Joined: Oct 2008
Post: #18
14-08-2009 06:04 PM

How about:

"Should the Jerk Cookout be at Horniman Gardens?
(Please read all 5 options carefully before voting)

1) Yes, definitely.
2) No, definitely not
3) Yes in principle, but with significantly improved parking and traffic management
4) No in principle, not without significantly improved parking and traffic management
5) Don't know/can't decide "

Do people think this will produce a more accurate reflection of forum views?

NB: It's only a first stab. My first thought was to only have 3 options, with the third being "Only if...." but then I thought that it would be too easy for both sides of the debate to claim the numbers from a third option phrased like that, and those who had voted that way might be split in what they would prefer if no traffic management solution could be found.

And while I don't personally mind publicly declaring my vote, given the heat in the main discussion others may not wish to, so I think the poll should certainly be anonymous.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #19
14-08-2009 07:25 PM

I think Contrary Mary's questions could be simplified, viz.

1) Yes
2) Yes, but only with significantly improved parking and traffic management
3) No, even with significantly etc.
4) Don't know/can't decide.

Having said that, I can't really see the point of a vote at this stage - indeed, there is a risk that the results could be presented in the media in a way that reflected badly on the FH community. Presumaby everyone, including the event organizers, Horniman's management and the police, must know by now what the problems were (and if they don't, they could be invited to look at this forum). Wouldn't the best thing be for the FH Society to contact them all (or at any rate Horniman's management) and ask them what they are doing to ensure that they don't recur next year? We could then, if it seemed appropriate, vote on any proposals which emerge. I certainly wouldn't want to commit myself for or against anything until we have some more facts.

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michael


Posts: 3,217
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #20
15-08-2009 09:31 AM

I have a meeting booked in September (booked before last weekend) with Horniman management.

I am currently attempting to arrange a meeting with TfL (Directorate of Traffic Operations) to discuss Honor Oak Road and Sydenham Rise, not just for one day a year, but to improve the situation on a daily basis.

And I intend to speak to the police in the next few days about the event at the opportunities they have publicised on this forum.

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