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September 29th Action Day
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Tim Lund


Posts: 252
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #1
06-09-2018 09:54 AM

This post was last modified: 06-09-2018 09:58 AM by Tim Lund.

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #2
06-09-2018 06:29 PM

You can demand and protest as much as you like, the Govt has made its position clear which is we are not getting a second vote. The country voted in June 16 and made the decision to leave Europe. People did not understand the consequences but they are awakening to what they have done. That is why Cameron resigned and May took over as PM. Now the Govt is implementing (or trying to) the out come of that referendum.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 252
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #3
11-09-2018 04:58 PM

Quote:
March 20 2017
"A Downing Street spokesperson told a briefing of journalists in Westminster on Monday morning: “There is no change in our position on an early general election. There is not going to be a general election.”


Theresa May announces snap general election on June 8 to 'make a success of Brexit'

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #4
11-09-2018 10:54 PM

And your point is?

This post was last modified: 11-09-2018 10:55 PM by samuelsen.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 252
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #5
12-09-2018 05:27 PM

The point is that nothing Theresa May says is clear is clear

We will one day find that Brexit does not mean Brexit

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #6
12-09-2018 08:34 PM

She's implementing the result of the 2016 referendum as the majority of people voted for, you may disagree but that is the will of the people. Primarily I suspect because the majority were swayed by the immigration issue without realising the public services would grind to a halt without them, as they do jobs others do not want to do.

It's called democracy. Just because you do not like the result does not mean you can now go back and have the result changed.

And yes it does have implications, and yes people did not understand those implications, but that is because they were as Rinder would say, STUPID.

Now the consequences are coming home to roost. Prices are increasing, companies are looking to take business overseas and things are going to get even tougher for the next two and a half years, including a housing market that is likely to take an even bigger nose dive. And the same can be said for UK plc, but it was the will of the people at the time.

You can shout, scream and stamp your feet in protest as much as you like, it will make no difference, the decision has been made and that is, as they say, END OF.

This post was last modified: 12-09-2018 08:36 PM by samuelsen.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,344
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
13-09-2018 09:02 AM

The whole point of a democracy is that we can change our minds. We have General Elections. We can change the Government.

In Ancient Athens when they had a direct democracy they originally voted to execute all the inhabitants of the island of Mytilene. Later realising they had been stupid, they had another vote and decided not to execute all the inhabitants.

Another point is that some of the people who voted to leave have probably died and we must have a lot of people who could not vote back in 2016, who now have the vote.

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #8
13-09-2018 10:37 AM

People voted out as they no longer wanted to be "managed" by the EU and wanted the UK to take control back and make its own decisions, without reference to or interference from the EU. And a lot of people have been born who are too young to vote, works both ways. The decision to leave the EU was democratically taken and made by the people at the time. The Government are implementing that democratic result.

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Hillman


Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2012
Post: #9
13-09-2018 07:04 PM

" Another point is that some of the people who voted to leave have probably died "

That's a whole new take on Project Fear - presumably only remainers will survive.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 252
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #10
13-09-2018 07:23 PM

Sherwood Wrote:
In Ancient Athens when they had a direct democracy they originally voted to execute all the inhabitants of the island of Mytilene. Later realising they had been stupid, they had another vote and decided not to execute all the inhabitants.


Wow - excellent and erudite

samuelsen - you baffle me. I agree with you on all you points - people did not understand what they were doing, it was a bad decision, and it was democracy. But democracy is not democracy if bad decisions cannot be reversed - then it becomes the tyranny of the past.

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #11
13-09-2018 08:03 PM

Three options existed at the time of the referendum;

Vote to stay
Vote to leave
Abstain from voting for whatever reason.

Result - Vote to leave

Then No deal came into play, no one know's if the UK will agree to the terms of leaving and if they don't then it will be a No Deal, today we begin to learn the consequences of a No deal, and those consequences will affect loads of people and be costly.

The vote to leave and the consequences of a no deal are in the hands of the politicians elected to represent all parts of the UK. Democracy will be done.

Tim and the protesters maybe you are revolter's and want anarchy which is clearly not democracy. Actually you are remainer's Simply put you lost the referendum, which you think sucks but hey, that's life, politics and democracy.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 252
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #12
13-09-2018 09:34 PM

Well,I'm still baffled.

Another point you make here I have some sympathy for:

samuelsen Wrote:
The vote to leave and the consequences of a no deal are in the hands of the politicians elected to represent all parts of the UK.


because I was brought up to believe in parliamentary democracy, in other words, letting elected politicians get on with making political decisions, subject only to periodic general elections. If they are to get on with it now, and can recognise that the consequences of Brexit will be what you say, how are they still getting with making political decisions if they can't make a decision on something as big as this?

I think we know the answer - having had the referendum, making out it was something where they needed to refer to the people, it's pretty hard to come back with that old stuff about the sovereignty of parliamentary. I think most people would see that as a bit dubious, whatever their views on Brexit

On the other hand, if a referendum then was legitimate, how can it not be legitimate now to have another referendum? I just don't see that. If we have another referendum now, which could use some system of preference voting to allow a range of options to be on the ballot paper, that wouldn't seem dubious to me.

I keep hearing the suggestion that we shouldn't do anything about the negative consequences of Brexit, because it will lead to anarchy, I guess because angry Leavers will take to the streets. Would Leavers really do that, after another referendum which didn't go their way? That's rather like accusing them of believing in mob rule, which I don't think is fair, but if it was, is that something to give in to?

This post was last modified: 13-09-2018 09:35 PM by Tim Lund.

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samuelsen


Posts: 168
Joined: Feb 2016
Post: #13
13-09-2018 10:29 PM

I'll keep this brief, there will NOT be a second referendum, the PM has made that clear. A choice was made by the population, the Government are implementing the result of the referendum. The consequences are clearly unpalatable for some especially those who are remainers. I suspect those consequences will become even more unpalatable as it becomes clearer on how it will impact on everyday life in the UK after March 2019.

Enjoy having your tantrum on the 29th, it will make absolutely no difference to what is going to happen.

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