OK. But isn't it time, especialy now the Big Issue people have given their input, for people who are concerned to bring the issue up with them, or Sainsbury's, or anyone rather that continue this GroundHog Day of a thread?

There's some skanky woman who regularly asks me for money in Forest Hill. She seems to be around the place lots. I'm sure I'm not the only one she asks. She is, indeed, begging.

I don't see eight pages on her.

Those outside Sainsburys, and in particular the man with the Croydon badge who I saw this evening, are clearly in breach of the code of conduct, stating that they must not Sell The Big Issue whilst looking after children under the age of 16.

What I don't understand is what the relevance is of the location on the badge. Is this the location where they are registered to sell the Big Issue, or can they sell them anywhere in London / England / the world?

Personally I do not like Big Issue sellers located so close to cash points as in the case at Sainsburys, especially when the pavement is not particularly wide. But with the situation with three different Big Issue sellers on this plot on a regular basis, often with children, I am most concerned that this is organised in some way to make money out of selling the Big Issue in an unsuitable way.

I am pleased that Paul is looking into this matter and hope that he will keep us informed.

nevermodern - I do not know what "your problem" is but, surely, seeing that there IS 8 pages of "this" MUST MEAN that people on SE23.com/those who live in SE23 feel strongly about this subject?
They are free to post their thoughts, feelings and comments (as long as they do not blatantly offend others or break any rules) yes?
YES - so let us/them get on with it!

If you are BORED with all of this, WHY OH WHY do you continuously read the thread AND comment?


Trying to understand where you are coming from, but its becoming very difficult.

Would you like a "It's nevermodern - to comment on anything you feel strongly about/that is affecting you directly" thread?

You could start one you know?

Someone started this thread, for a good reason, but it seems we, who complain/have concerns, do not sit well with you. We must not complain because it's getting boring/monotonous to you and is not important - to you.

"The subject seems to be done and dusted, but every month or so the scab is picked open again"

"This is all becoming obsessive and excessive and unpleasant. "

To YOU, maybe; not to many others of us, though.

It's important to MANY of us - it's not make-believe, its real, and is an issue and concern, to MANY of us, within SE23/on SE23.com - along with MANY OTHER THINGS that are commented on, daily/often.

We have proof and reason, to complain, we feel strongly about this issue, so why is it you feel we should not do so?!

Sorry, but you are getting more boring and irritating, than this thread/the BI sellers, to me.

If you really do not like the comments that the majority of people (those who ARE annoyed at the recent Big Issue Sellers "tactics") are making, why don't you just bypass/NOT READ this thread?

You have said before, that "we" (meaning, it seems, EVERYONE who contributes to this thread) are obsessive in the fact we keep on posting about this BIG issue, yet you are not? - in the fact you keep on posting here, within a thread that you seem to feel is pointless?



Just my thoughts and observations.

Regards and a good weekend, wished to all

Sue

PS it is indeed great that, now, we have some input from The Big Issue organisation itself.
The "skanky woman" is probably less annoying than the afore-mentioned BI sellers! If not, why don't you start a thread about her and complain, to your hearts content?


AND! - this turned into a much longer post than I intended - apologies, but also, not, as I am speaking my mind, without, hopefully, upsetting anyone or hurting their feelings?

Am I allowed to do this?

Hysteria aside, the fact that most contributors feel the subject is worthy of such endless comment does not, in itself, make it a fitting or fruitful subject for endless discussion.

And I'm sure those Christians in the lion's den were pleased to have at least one or two defenders amongs the Romans, even if those Christians were apparently off having a bet in PaddyPower/swanning round in BMWs/at the mercy of a Mr Big (take your pick!).

Not that I'm particularly defending the Big Issue seller. It's just absolutely clear to me that the extent of the vitriole is out of proportion to the 'threat' they cause to forest hill, and the concern that they merit. This, to me is *absolutely* clear.

If you can't see where I'm coming from...well, then, maybe it's cos you can't hear through your own cacophony of caps and exclamation marks. Sit down and brew up, and read what I've written again.

Until then, I'll just continue to bore the pants off you now and again, seeing how it affects you so much Maybe a little perpective will eventually rub off on you.

nevermodern - whatever!

Hysteria? - no, far from it - just people who have been affected, or not, voicing their opinions on a PUBLIC forum. This is allowed, and welcomed, usually, because it informs the masses.
That is why Forums exist.
People giving feedback/input/contributions.

Just like you do, but, for sure, I will be by-passing any posts made, that I see, from now on, by you, as I am sure they will not interest me (mostly, posts by you that I have seen, have been to put down or dismiss or ridicule etc. others, with something to say that is obviously not to your liking)

Cacaphony? lol - uh huh

Vitriole?

I am on a public forum and am free (within the rules) to type and respond, as I wish.
I do not use ALL CAPS nor exclamation marks, ALL the time.

Read it again?!
No thanks! - I have already read over many of your posts, before, and I cannot put myself through that again, sorry - and I will, as I said before, by-pass any post with your name on it, as, I am sure I will not be interested in your comments (one-sided and "my comments/thoughts are THE ones everyone should think and agree on", all the time, it seems)
IF I do happen to accidentally read one of your posts, be assured, I will not comment - I have better things to do with my time; NOT all of which is spent, commenting about Big Issue (the annoying ones) sellers.

There ARE many other things that I will comment on, however (the BI people being one of the lesser problematic things YET still important, to myself and others)
YES! there are MANY more - FAR MORE important things going on that deserve time, effort and comment - but please, stop your be-littling of people who happen to comment on things they WISH TO COMMENT UPON.

With regard to perspective - oh, believe me, I have it, which is why, after this last comment to yourself, I won't respond to you OR be drawn into wasting my time over your views/comments or negatism.

Yours sincerely

Sue

You don't like the big issue seller.
Other people may with them luck.
I believe that a discussion on them that goes on this long is out of kilter with their 'threat' in Forest Hill.

You have an opinion. I have an opinion.

I didn't make this personal.

I think that was you.

Unfortunately it's quite hard to avoid some posts because of their sheer length.

I am an occasional visitor to SE23.com, and only post on the odd occasion. However on seeing that this thread attacts so much interest, I come to the conclusion that many of the denizens of Forest Hill need to get a life. Glad to see that the Daily Mail mentality has spread from angry of Tonbridge Wells to parts of SE23. In case I have made myself unclear I am being sarcastic, not ironic, but sarcastic. Off to check out some more interesting threads, so sorry I wont be checking out your class action rights to reply.

It is interesting that feeling runs so high about those particular BI sellers.

I've never had negative feelings about the BI before. I was quite pleased when the scheme started because it would help homeless people to get a bit of income in a more self-respectful way than begging, to tide them over for a short time until their circumstances improved.

But those particular women at Sainsburies really annoy me! When they first arrived I used to buy from them once a week, but it was uncomfortable because I felt I was being forced to. Once I gave one of them some extra money and after that the woman would literally follow me down the street shouting 'Please Madame', each time I walked past. I stopped buying after that, but I hate walking past and ignoring her now.

I think that there is something insistent about this particular group that does wind people up. I felt even more indigant after my partner saw one of the women encouraging a young man to beg on a train, which made me think they may be part of a big gang involved in many kinds of begging, which is against the spirit of BI.

My first post on this subject, but I want to say that I share the strong feelings and I'm interested in other peoples' views. Nothing at all against the BI in general.

Jane

Just realised what is so annoying (to me anyway). It is the feeling that I'm feeling pressurised to give money to people I know nothing about and who may be either in genuine need or part of some great big exploitative scam. I associate this mixture of guilt/irritation/anxiety with certain holiday locations where begging is the norm and I don't like it being introduced to my daily routes - selfish of me, perhaps!

I actually think this thread is interesting as it reveals a lot about us all and our attitudes to the ' new Europe'. Seriously. And I haven't read the Guardian for a week. Nor do I read the Daily Fail or the Daily Excess.

I didn't like some of the initial comments as I felt there was a lot of overt and covert racism being displayed towards what was a vulnerable economically challenged group of people. There was also a bit of snobbery expressed ie somehow the BI brought the inner city ever closer to Forest Hill which contradicted its so called exclusivity.
I too felt that it was becoming obsessional when people started to log their every move ie where and when they got on and off trains and what car they drove. However the bottom line for me is the involvement of children who seem to spending all day on the pavement, and at that point its time to get upset for the reasons I and other people have listed above.

Its more culturally accepted in parts of Europe to sell or beg with children , or chase after people asking them to buy the mag, as there is little in the way of social security and the emotional pressure is the only way in which some people can scrape a living. Even in Spanish cities, disabled people sell lottery tickets in very overt ways, in a manner that would be denigrated in the UK as demeaning and patronising. Its not however that different from the principle of the Big Issue where people benefit from commission on sales.

The 'big issue' here is surely a cultural clash between eastern and western europeans particularly where people are from former communist countries .If the sellers can be persuaded against involving their children then I am happy to let them get on with it.
It would also be good to have their pitch moved to another location, perhaps outside Smiths, where the pavement is wider and the cashpoint is further away. They might even find that people are more willing to cough up. And then we'll all be happy. And maybe we'll continue this debate on a new thread entitled ' New Europe' .....

Wish I could have put it as well as that.

I congratulate Netty for starting this record breaking discussion. Well done.
I have mailed Paul Joseph of BI as per his request

Most people are sympathetic towards the homeless, many homeless people have social and drug/alcohol dependency problems with little chance of reintegrating back into what we see as a normal life. The so called 'skanky woman' appears to be typical of this. You chose to give directly to those in need or to charities that go some way to help these people.

The BI sellers outside Sainsburys do not look like struggling homeless people. They appear well fed and well dressed, so naturally people question the validaty of their status. We've had homeless people in Forest Hill ever since I can remember, but the 'Sainsbury people' are different because they are persistant, aggressive, use children and come from a culture that uses begging as a trade, which goes against our culture here in Britain and offends us (btw being offended by people who beg rather than get a job is a cultral thing with us Brits that seems to get over looked when the anti-rascist brigade get going).

Any reason why they cant get a job? what's being done to help them find a home, does anyone know?

Anyway, regardless of where these people are from they are behaving in a way that most people feel is unacceptable. Using the rascist card is a cheap means to stiffle debate and is partly the reason why this thread will continue.

Again, it's not the facts themselves, but the *extent* of the concern.

It's also true, I think, that those who say they're not racist often talk of the difference in 'culture' being the issue, not the fact they're from a different 'race'. Not sure we're being entirely honest with ourselves here.

anyway, just to reitterate. I may agree with some criticisms of the BI sellers' behaviour, but it's the sheer magnitute of concern about them that makes me feel deeply uncomfortable, and makes me wonder who the harassers are and who are the harassed. They're not an 'issue' like the pools, to be bandied around and talked about: they're actually *people* who have no means of address on this forum and who've had their behaviour anonymously scrutinised for over eight months. Some contributors should question whether this is now more about getting a kick out of giving the BI sellers a collective kicking, rather than contributing anything useful and helping the people concerned.

Funny that anti-racists are always a 'brigade'.

Nevermodern, it's not the extent of the 'concern' that keeps this thread alive, it's the bickering amoungst ourselves about who's right and whos wrong , who's a covert rascist, who's not, etc that keeps this going. Cant you see that?

Not true. The issue of whether this forum's attituded to the BI sellers (overwhelmingly negative) should be questioned forms a miniscule percentage of the discussion. The pattern up to this point has been periods of quiet before someone pipes in with a 'they're still there'. Or 'I saw here getting out of a BMW' or 'Now there's three of them', and the floodgates are opened again.

Not sure why you've quoted 'concern'. Is there not concern about them?

Should have been a quote around 'extent' not concern.

And lets face it, you dont expect to see homeless people with a BMW. I cant say I'm surprised by people's reaction.

Now the 'extent' of your 'concern' becomes clear!

Did you see the bloke selling his BI on the train yesterday?

Trainers must've cost a fortune.

I haven't noticed anything racist in this discussion (though admittedly I haven't read every word of it).

Personally I would be, and have been, just as annoyed by white British people repeatedly asking me for money.

Begging is degrading for people on both sides of the transaction and I don't see that encouraging or ignoring it will do much to help the problems of poverty and homelessness. The whole point of Big Issue selling is supposed to be that it is selling, not begging.

Jane I agree , I am objecting to begging , especially with young children as accessories.
There is nothing racist about this.
As far as I was aware The BI was for homeless British People ( this again is not racist as British people cover many races ).
I give to many charities but will not under any circumstances give to these beggers.