Sorry to hear about the grafitti in your area and on your property frosty. It's a nasty crime that makes the neighbourhood feel run down and unsafe. In reality it's often the result of a few kids who do most damage and it's not always related to violence. The way to fight this is to constantly paint over the damage - get the council to paint over it in public places. Spray cans should be illegal if in the possession of anyone under the age of 18 , fine the parents or make these kids clean the stuff off. Chain gang style.

Liberal laws are the problem - not enough punishment for wrong doing in our society. Kids should NOT be allowed to loiter when they should be at school, By-laws should be enforced, like NOTmaking a public nuisance of yourself outside Sainsbury's and NOT riding your bike on the pavement. There should be more of a police presence 'on the beat' and stop and search should be brought back (and it has).

I dont however, believe these problems are particular to Forest Hill, probably a symptom of living in London (or any city). Forest Hill is still a lovely place - look at the Museum, Horniman gardens, the summer fetes and events. We've got some nice restuarants, pubs, music and comedy. There are new businesses in the area and people do support them. We have a library and should have a new swimming pool soon. There are some good schools in the area and there is a strong sense of community which you see from this message board and the efforts of the Forest Hill Society.

Well, it looks as if the young girl has been moved - she was looking very glum faced today and was sat nearer the pelican crossing. Congratulations to all concerned.

I have to say that I have never found the BI sellers to be rude. I make a small effort to be polite to them by saying Good Morning/ Afternoon (Bun? diminea?a [Boona Dimmy-nartza] /Bun? zi [Boona Zee]) and No Thank You (Nu mul?umesc [no mutts-a-mess]) to them and they are polite in return.

If you find them polite, why are you congratulating all those concerned in getting her, apparently, moved on?

I have to say I hadn't an 'issue' with the sellers until today. The bloke was there this afternoon and he had a year-18 month old baby in a pushchair plus a little girl about 2/3 years old! The Sainsburys staff said that a lot of people were complaining about this- the kids apparently were there all day several days a week. Seems to be a new development. It is not appropriate to involve children in this way, or to make them sit in a traffic and fume laden road all day with no respite or rest. It is also not appropriate for a baby of that age to spend long periods in a pushchair without either lying down to rest or opportunities to crawl. It does also look more and more like begging when children are involved. The pram was actually wedged up against Sainsburys window under the canopy so within Sainsbury's property.

I will be phoning the Big Issue myself on Monday morning as this is really not on from a child welfare point of view. I'm surprised that social services have not been called in already.

Good Luck Roz
I won't go over my previous comments as some people objected.
Please let us know what the outcome is.
Sainsbury's could do more themselves. They could forbid them sitting in the doorway which they do when it is raining also I believe they are allowed to use their facilities. They are a disgrace.

I saw this myself, too, the other day, and commented to my youngest son how it was, at the most, child cruelty (to the small girl I saw, hanging around, screaming at or because of (?) her father - she was obviously distressed, fed-up etc. (or was he just the man who was "using her" to make money? - i didn't happen to see the baby that time, but maybe I just missed the buggy/pram or maybe he/she had been taken away by the time I came by?) and, at the least, this was emotional and phsycological blackmail (to the general public/shoppers/ "punters")
Totally out of order!

Also, I agree, Sainsbury's should do more to prevent this.

I noticed the change to a man also, with child.
Confused by it all.

Has anyone contacted Sainsbury's about this at all. Not saying they should, just seeing them mentioned a few times, I wondered if it had been followed up on.

BI sellers have really lost their appeal to me over the years. What was once clearly a stepping stone, is now just seemingly almost a career.

His ID badge says 'Croydon'. I believe the women's badges say 'Forest Hill'.

Frosty, completeley agree with you. Such a pity people cant voice such opinion without being scoffed at.

I have complained about these people for months and been accused of racism and every over ism I can think of.
My complaint is not because they are probably Romanian or Bulgarian ( although new members of EU have no rights to work here ).
I have been attacked also for calling it begging when it blatantly is.

Their relations seem to be at Beckenham Sainsbury's , no one at Lidl ( I wonder why ).
I have e mailed Sainsbury but did not get the courtesy of a reply.
I give to a number of charities but refuse to give to these people.
Perhaps someone else would like to try with Sainsbury's. I undertsand someone spoke to Big Issue but apparently they did not seem to care who was selling their product.
I just ignore them or occasionally say > The Big Issue is why are you here <.
Good Luck to anyone attempting to stop this begging in SE 23

The issue here, now, in this strand, is not the Big Issue seller(s) and their behaviour. The issue isn't about the rights and wrongs of them standing outside Sainsbury's.

The issue is the *extent* to which their lives and existence are deemed to be of such concern to users of this forum: a concern which has raged on this forum over *five* pages, *eight* months, and 7,000 viewings.

The subject seems to be done and dusted, but every month or so the scab is picked open again.

Some of what people say may be true, some not. But as I said, that really isn't the issue any more. This is all becoming obsessive and excessive and unpleasant.

I thought it was funny the other week when i saw the usual women walk in to the betting shop down the road, must be making good money on Big Issue these days.

A member of the forum has alerted me to this thread so I?m taking the opportunity to respond to some of the concerns posted, and clarify a few factual details about how The Big Issue operates.

In order to sell The Big Issue an individual has to provide written proof that they are homeless of vulnerably housed ? this could include people sleeping rough or in hostels, temporary/overcrowded accommodation or anybody at risk of being homeless, eg. somebody who has been served a Notice to Quit on their property. Big Issue vendors buy The Big Issue Magazine at 70p and sell it onto the public for ?1.50.

All Big Issue vendors sign a Code of Conduct which outlines what they can and can?t do whilst selling. This can be viewed at our website http://www.bigissue.com - i have also attached it here.
Vendors are not allowed to beg, obstruct the public highway or sell on private property (including trains.)

All Big Issue vendors should wear a valid badge whilst they are selling. If anyone has a complaint about a specific vendor please note their unique badge number and email me at paul.joseph@bigissue.com or vendor.comments@bigissue.com or call me on 020 7526 3487.

While a vendor has the right to sell on the pavement outside Sainsbury?s, they should not block the entrance or harass customers. If a vendor is doing this, or is not wearing a valid badge, please do not buy from them and report them to me or one of my colleagues.

I would appreciate any information about people who are abusing the name of The Big Issue to beg or commit any illegal activity. I would also hope that a genuine vendor who is working within the Code of Conduct be supported in doing so by the local community.

It appears that several complaints have been made previously, and apologise that these have not been resolved satisfactorily.

The complaint I received today was regarding vendors selling with children. My colleagues are investigating this matter, please be patient while we try to resolve it, and please feel free to contact me if you have any further concerns or queries.

Paul Joseph
Outreach & Distribution Manager (London)
The Big Issue

Nevermodern I totally agree. This thread which I have commented on is being fuelled by forum members with far too much time on their hands. Let me be the first to thank Paul Joseph for his input which will hopefully act as one big full stop to this petty rant. Unless someone is threatened with violence into buying a big issue in Forest hill can we all just move on to something else.

I dont know why you view this thread as unpleasant Nevermodern, unless you are referring to the fact that some people on this forum have been made to feel that they are not allowed an opinion and that their comments are racist? No wonder it has been read by loads of people - it's a compelling topic, and you help to make it so.

Paul
Many thanks for explaining the situation to us.

Just to echo the thanks to Paul, and also to note, no seller today?? Normally there when I pass at various times in the day.

There was a fire at Norwood Junction this morning that disrupted the rail service. They are probably somewhere else today.

Wonder if they'll be there tomorrow?

"They" WERE there today.
I was/went out for approximately 5 hours today.
The guy with the Croydon BI badge was outside Sainsburys FH this morning/just before mid-day with the little girl, again.
When I was returning home (got off a bus and entered Sainsburys) he was again (or still?!) outside Sainsburys, with the female child (she is under 3, I think?)
This was approximately 5.30pm


Thankyou very much indeed Paul, for your input and some clarification.


These particular sellers (mainly the women, at least two - though I have not seen them lately, whenever I have been past) DO hassle customers of Sainsburys, and others people passing by, all the time and they do block the pavement, often.

Anyway, just some input, again, from myself and some feedback.

Getting weary of it all myself, but I totally disapprove of children being (used) out on the street for ? amount of time, alongside their guardian/parent who is selling something (good and worthwhile - the magazine itself, AND the cause)
So, I am posting my own personal thoughts/comments, again.

To me, the big issue is NOT who is selling the magazine, or even the fact they are selling it (it serves a good purpose and is good way to help raise funds for what it was intended - the homeless) nor is it important to me WHERE they are from (originally or otherwise) - it's the fact that THESE PARTICULAR SELLERS of The Big Issue DO harass and bug people, incessantly and now have resorted to having children accompany them - not good for the child (or children, as has been reported here that a baby was also with the man and female child, before)
I must just say here though, that the man does not appear (on the few times I have seen him) to harass, in general, like the women do/did.
It seems he is using "emotional blackmail" instead
(seems to work too, and probably better than the more "in your face/space" attitude of the (previous) women)


Sue