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Gated communities
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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #1
07-12-2008 06:49 PM

There is one in the new estate off the HO Road part of Canonbie.

Why?

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #2
07-12-2008 07:31 PM

Why not ?

Would like to think that all Forest Hillians would not feel the need to live in gated appts but if they do I have no problem with it. Have they gotten a Mexican guard on duty on the gate as in LA.

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roz


Posts: 1,790
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #3
07-12-2008 08:41 PM

It adds an allure of exclusivity hence allowing developers to charge higher prices.
I have to say that I am glad I do not live in one; I would miss the passing Carol Singers/Trick and Treaters/window cleaners/burglars pretending to be window cleaners/have- you -thought -about -switching -your -power supply- provider -and if you don't -we'll -fiddle- the -forms -anyway salesmen/kids seeking urgent medical assistance for injured hedgehogs(seriously)/people who knock at midnight saying they have lost their way( next time will refer to JW's)/the Betterware people/electoral canvassers/can you take in this parcel please people etc.
I used to live on the 4th floor of a block of flats and whilst not gated the stairs were enough to keep out such folk so now that I live in a house I am regularly reminded of lifes great tapastry on a daily basis.

Not quite the answer to the question asked but had fun writing it anyway.....

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #4
08-12-2008 08:55 AM

Would love to be in a gated community right now. I am on crutches so it takes me ages to get up and get to the door. Two weeks ago the buzzer goes, I hobble to the door to be greeted by "can we talk to you about God". Was not a happy bunny.

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Toffeejim


Posts: 84
Joined: Nov 2004
Post: #5
08-12-2008 02:27 PM

Whilst I don't particularly like to see gated communities I suppose it is understandable that people feel the need to protect themselves when moving into slightly dodgy areas. I remember seeing a lot of similar protective measures going up when I lived in Toxteth in the 80's and I suppose there are some parallels here: a ghetto-ised community with it's own distinct social demographic suffering sudden and unforeseen economic hardship. This could turn out to be a time of historic social turmoil amongst our middle classes. Will we see road barricades of burning chelsea tractors?

Of course in Toxteth the local territory was marked out by the street signs being decorated in rastafarian colours. So look out for trustafarian pastels being applied to Horniman Heights street furniture. It'll be a sure sign the area's about to go up in flames.

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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #6
08-12-2008 11:36 PM

Oh a million thanks TJ. I was trying to get some rational debate about whether people wanted gated communities in SE23, which of course being some sandal wearing liberal I don't, and you have to have a cheap shot due to your insecurities about your location, that have resulted in this rather important posting, being shoved into the insignificant part of this web site.

Thanks alot. No chrimbo card for you.

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grahamw


Posts: 58
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #7
09-12-2008 12:55 PM

An interesting thread BD... I was going to go off on an anti-gated community post.... but then I read this;

http://www.wmin.ac.uk/page-2903

I would have said that gated communities are a dreadful phenomenon (based on the American model), and that this type of 'fortressing' may give a short-lived feeling of security to the paranoid inhabitants, but there are seriously bad consequences for communities and social cohesion, with the exclusion of (less fortunate?) members of society.

But the above paper suggests that the issue is more complex, and that it may be beneficial to maintain the overall social mix of an area, rather than having people move out of an area because they don't feel safe (and therefore move an area further toward social / economic segregation).

Perhaps London is a special case, in that we tend to have more socially and economically mixed areas anyway. In the US, I believe the situation is more extreme.

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Toffeejim


Posts: 84
Joined: Nov 2004
Post: #8
09-12-2008 01:45 PM

Sorry baggydave, have you got a problem with Toxteth then? I do hope you're not "doing a Lydon" here? I say if Toxteth's good enough for the Liverpool Echo it's good enough for me and it's a perfectly valid example on the use of security and the effects of ghetto-isation.

And I'm sure you'll be comforted to know that I have no inseucrities about my location having lived in all sorts of places that are Very Posh Indeed. I've even lived in the ultimate dream location for all you local social aspirants - the catchment area for Dulwich Village's primary school!!

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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #9
09-12-2008 10:17 PM

Thanks for the useful link Graham. Still doesn't feel right though - and the new development was to attract new people to the area, not stop residents emmigrating out of Borough. What sort of people live there? Is this, or will this be a trend in FH. I've never felt vulnerable in the area, perhaps that is an attitude thing, nor do I want bars on my windows.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #10
10-12-2008 09:43 AM

Who are we to say that people should or shouldnt live in gated communities. What next, tell people that pebble dashing houses is naffUnsure

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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #11
10-12-2008 10:07 PM

Londondrz - where in this thread will you find a suggestion that anyone would want to outlaw Gated communities? I was hoping for some debate on what was good and what was bad about them, which we sort of started. Its something to do with making up a community. You will find many of my threads an interesting diversion from the normal postings covering Sainsburys and the train service.

The rest of you (excluding the wind up merchant) - do you have a view? Or were you late home tonight due to signal failure at NX Gate.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #12
10-12-2008 11:26 PM

BD, I didnt mention banning. Was a slightly bad attemt at humour on my part (cant believe you didnt fall for my pebble dashing hook).

All I was saying was we have our own choices re the subject.

My parent live in South Africa, they may have a slightly different opinion however.

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Toffeejim


Posts: 84
Joined: Nov 2004
Post: #13
11-12-2008 02:11 PM

"Wind-up merchant" baggydave? Oh do put your handbag away. And here was I thinking all your references to living on the "posh estate" were part of an attempt at winding up the rest of the good citizens of Forest Hill. Or are we to take you at face value? If that is the case I suggest you repeat "I must learn to be humble" ten times before each posting. Alternatively you could take up churchgoing - lots of good cues to humility there - and heaven knows they could do with the support these days.

And just because you don't get my parallels between gated communities and ghetto-isation there's no need to disparage the point. Large parts of Toxteth became, to all practical purposes, gated through (i) local authorities blocking off the end of most points of entry (ii) locals reinforcing this through informally restricing access by car to one of the main thoroughfares. The lack of contact with the rest of society allowed anti-social elements to thrive and for the rest of local society to avoid those areas, leading to a stigmatisation of the area. Just because an area is within a higher income bracket it doesn't mean that the individuals happy to cut themselves off are not being anti-social (in the broadest sense) by doing so, nor does it mean that they will avoid being stigmatised for undermining and fragmenting normal societal responsibilities by donig so.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #14
11-12-2008 04:57 PM

BD doesn't seem to mind being flippant in other posts when people are having a serious debate about things that actually matter so I wouldn't take too much notice TJ!

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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #15
11-12-2008 09:56 PM

So Jon14, what do you think of gated communities

Or are you the type that likes to agitate from the sidelines

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michael


Posts: 3,196
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #16
11-12-2008 10:33 PM

London planning policy is that all developments over a certain size should be mixed communities in terms of affordable and market housing. For large developments, especially in a borough like Lewisham, they will always be mixed in this sense. The gates are for security and do not represent the kind of social exclusion that many people in the 1980s feared with the Thatcher development in Dulwich (a gated community where Maggie bought a house for those that don't know, and it isn't really called the Thatcher development, I just can't remember the name).

Today gated communities such as Century Yard exist to allow children safe places to play, residents places to park, and avoids anti-social behaviour that can occur in some areas. Whether Canonbie is a good example of this or not I do not know, as I don't know to where you are referring.

I did try to find out where this development is located and I found quite an interesting document on Lewisham's website which has a drawing of a gated block of flats on Canonbie and gives the access code for the gate!

BD should remember that he lives in the gated community of Horniman Heights. After a certain time the park keeper shuts the gates and all access to the area is limited to car users and those fit enough to climb to the top of the hill. This is a socially divisive development and should be flattened (the hill not the houses). Of course I have a vested interest as your hill ruins my view of London, I don't know how the hill it was ever given planning permission. I hold God personally responsible for the creation of this hill and will be boycotting his birthday this year.

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #17
12-12-2008 10:17 AM

Baggydave Wrote:
So Jon14, what do you think of gated communities

Or are you the type that likes to agitate from the sidelines


Not at all. I think it's a real shame that people feel that they're necessary to feel safe in their own home. There is evidence however that shows how gating can encourage people to stay where they live, rather than moving to more affluent areas and abandoning areas entirely to people suffering deprivation.

There could also be benefits with regard to urban renewal if property prices are protected and there are greater opportunities for social mixing.

Of course, there are problems with them, but it is that much different from a block of flats with a buzzer entry? Residents obviously like those as it puts another barrier between the front door and hoodies, making them feel safer. I'm inclined to think that people should feel safe in their own home, and if a gated community makes that possible in certain areas then who am I to object?

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Toffeejim


Posts: 84
Joined: Nov 2004
Post: #18
24-02-2010 04:37 PM

Some worrying news about further social unrest in the UDB estate.

Friends staying overnight in Westwood Park on Sunday were awoken by a fracas coming from the street. After the air had been turned thoroughly blue for several hours the police were summoned by concerned residents to restore order. The sound appeared to have come from Tewkesbury Avenue - is this one of the gated areas? Are the barriers merely there to contain rather than repel the anti-social elements? I think we should be told.

And what was this "domestic" all about anyway? Perhaps Saturday's Guardian had been recycled before the Sadoku was completed? Or just one of our sandal wearing friends having a bad night after smoking too much tea? It's enough to make one leave the country.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #19
25-02-2010 09:21 AM

TG, maybe the landed gentry in their gated community were experimenting with Performance Art?

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Toffeejim


Posts: 84
Joined: Nov 2004
Post: #20
02-03-2010 05:30 PM

Disturbing news of further outbreaks of social unrest amongst the Tewkesbury Lodgers. The police in evidence AGAIN. What can all the trouble be about? Could it be that a small minority of the residents are now too young to have completed their national service? Let's bring back the grammar schools whilst we're at it!

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