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2018 proposed changes to Southern timetable
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Posts: 56
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #41
05-12-2016 12:16 AM

Great idea to have direct trains to Charing Cross again instead of having to change at London Bridge, why not make that suggestion when completing the survey using Forest Hill Society's helpful guide. Would be nice if services were enhanced rather than continually cut bit by bit!

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Posts: 553
Joined: May 2010
Post: #42
11-12-2016 04:35 PM

I added the request to my comments. I wont be holding my breath.

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robin orton

Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #43
11-12-2016 04:54 PM

I thought this had been ruled out some time ago, because it was decided it was more important to provide more line capacity for SE trains between LB and CX rather than for ours. Obviously if you're from Blackheath or somewhere you can't be expected to put up with the inconvenience of having to change at LB.

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Posts: 623
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #44
11-12-2016 07:22 PM

I think it is more to do with the South Eastern railway not wanting to share its terminus with LBSCR. Oops, sorry Southern. Plus ça change...

More seriously, fast forward to London Bridge completion, having untangled the tracks so that the FH service does not impede Thameslink, the planners do not want CX-FH trains to cross in front of current services into CX from Lewisham/Kent etc. So, sadly, I not think we will get CX services back for a generation at least.

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Cllr Paul Upex

Posts: 41
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #45
12-12-2016 05:27 PM

Hello all

Sorry for the delay(!) in sharing this with you'

Below is a motion that I proposed and was unanimously backed at the last Lewisham Council meeting plus a link to the Labour website article.

Proposed by Councillor Upex and Seconded by Councillor Barnham

“Many Lewisham residents rely heavily on train services in order to manage work, family and social life, to a greater extent than residents in many other London boroughs. It has been clear for some time that train services for the Borough are in need of substantial improvement. One example is the unacceptably poor service on trains serving Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham and stations beyond, which has been highlighted by the 'Cinderella Line' campaign and Vicky Foxcroft MP.

Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) has launched an extensive consultation which sets out proposed changes to the timetable which will be operated by GTR in 2018 following completion of the Thameslink Programme. The Council warmly welcomes some of these proposals, notably the intention to introduce four trains an hour on the Catford Loop through Crofton Park and Bellingham on Monday to Saturday. We also welcome the imminent introduction of new rolling stock, with greater capacity.

But the changes to the Catford Loop do not go far enough, nor do they align sufficiently with wider train services. And other changes would have a sharply detrimental effect on residents who use the following stations - Sydenham, Forest Hill, Honor Oak, and Brockley. The changes which would be especially unwelcome include:
• Diverting all East Croydon services to West Croydon - making it take longer to get to Gatwick and other destinations in Sussex.
• Reducing peak services to London Bridge to four trains an hour (the same capacity as the rest of the day). These services would be replaced by five-carriage Overground trains to Dalston Junction.

This Council accordingly calls upon the Mayor of Lewisham to write to Southern on behalf of all Councillors and all passengers who use these services, calling for:
• the direct Service to East Croydon from Sydenham, Forest Hill, Honor Oak, Brockley to be maintained
• No cuts to peak services to London Bridge and a return to pre-revised timetable levels of 6 trains per hour (not least because, while welcoming an increase in Overground trains to Canada Water, we have concerns with regards to safety at this already overcrowded station)
• And for the Catford Loop:
o trains into central London to continue through to Kentish Town/St Pancras, not terminating at Blackfriars, which is a difficult interchange
o Four trains an hour also on Sundays, when demand can be as high as on other days
o Trains to be timed evenly at 15–minute intervals, instead of 10 or 20 minutes, so that people have greater certainty about when the next train is due
o Coordination with London Overground services at Denmark Hill and Peckham

This Council also asks that these matters be considered by the Public Transport Liaison Committee, with its findings subsequently reported back to full Council.”

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Posts: 553
Joined: May 2010
Post: #46
13-12-2016 10:55 PM

Thanks for that. It probably won't make any difference as the cynic in me tends to believe that consultations are carried out to make people feel they have a voice when in reality the decisions have already been made. Let's hope I am wrong.

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Posts: 129
Joined: Mar 2009
Post: #47
14-12-2016 12:18 AM

Aslef has told Chris Grayling to expect 10 years of industrial action. It rather makes the consultation academic to be honest as half the time Southern trains won't run (don't expect any help from the Department of Transport, they can't work out what to do). And CG won't transfer Southern to Mayor of London where there might be some hope of progress, cos it might look a bit iffy to transfer it to a Labour Mayor.

In brief, enjoy the Overground.

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Posts: 17
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #48
14-12-2016 10:25 AM

Having just commuted via Canada Water and Jubilee line, i can confirm that the proposed decrease in rush hour trains to London Bridge would be a bad idea. During the current strike, there are additional Overground trains running to compensate. So far these have been overcrowded, and the interchange at Canada Water is terrible, people can barely fit on the platforms. In fact, the Westbound jubilee queue this morning stretched across to the Eastbound platform, and it was severely overcrowded. The Southbound overground platform in the evening rush hour is also majorly rammed. I can't see how forcing commuters through one small station instead of having the choice to go to L Bridge can be considered a sensible plan.

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Posts: 802
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #49
15-12-2016 10:23 PM

I understand the reason why Southern want to cut peak services into London Bridge is that the signalling is at full capacity already at that time, so the only way to get those two extra Overground trains on our line is to cut 2 trains per hour during the morning peak on Southern.

Realistically, I can't see those Overground trains not being introduced onto what is an already busy line on a normal day.

The best but not ideal solution is to ensure Southern add 10 carriages to all of the remaining peak services into London Bridge to ensure the current capacity is maintained as they do in the evenings.

This post was last modified: 15-12-2016 10:23 PM by rbmartin.

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Posts: 56
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #50
16-12-2016 12:25 AM

I suspect you're right but how does that benefit us in Forest Hill/HOP? Two five door trains replacing 8 or 10 carriage trains (which most of the Southern ones are). If this goes ahead Canada Water is going to get busier and it's already beyond a joke - this week the assistant on the platform was repeatedly saying on the tannoy "no standing on the escalator, keep moving" over and again. And not without feeling. That can't be safe for children/older passengers.

I despair. Canada Water isn't capable of handling the people that use it now, and they want to divert more trains there from London Bridge?

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Posts: 273
Joined: Aug 2008
Post: #51
16-12-2016 11:42 AM

it would help a little at Canada Water if people with buggies used the lift - it's frightening the number who squeeze onto the escalator-it's bad enough without that! I try to go up the escalator and across the ticket hall and down again to avoid that tiny escalator

Is there any plan to improve things at Canada Water? It's been appalling for some years now but I haven't heard anything about improvements

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Posts: 129
Joined: Mar 2009
Post: #52
16-12-2016 10:36 PM

Having worked in Canary Wharf for some years, I was fortunate to be moved to an office in Park St (close by the Globe). With the Southern strikes I recently dog-legged via Canada Water and it is a much busier place. Really its a clear and present danger to use the sole escalator, its one person's trip away from a bad situation.

I would recommend using the escalator up to ticket office and go down the escalator there - just for pure H&S reasons. It is a very difficult interchange to get an extra escalator in, and not aware of any changes planned.

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Posts: 51
Joined: Nov 2014
Post: #53
17-12-2016 01:29 PM

The suggestion that Southern services be transferred to TfL may sound like a good idea, but I think TfL also lack imagination and forward planning.

After many months of disruption we were rewarded with 5 coach overground trains whose capacity was immediately filled and exceeded. Obviously it would have cost more money to extend all the platforms to support 6, 7 or even 8 coaches, but it needs to be done at some point so it is much better to spend the money now and take the benefits early, rather than making more expensive and disruptive piecemeal changes.

Similarly we saw the rebuild and extension of the lower Forest Hill entrance. Again, no imagination in what is a tiny expansion which could easily have been so much more. And the little narrow door way at the top of the stairs should be opened up too.

p*** poor planning all over.

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Posts: 1,360
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #54
01-01-2017 11:34 AM

An alternative might be to terminate some trains at Canada Water. They could be brought in at the other platform, which ahs a lot more space.

I have a letter from Sadiq Khan stating that the trains from New Cross will not be reduced. I think this makes sense as the capacity problem is not on the old East London Line, but on the railway network.

This post was last modified: 01-01-2017 11:36 AM by Sherwood.

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Posts: 802
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #55
01-01-2017 01:17 PM

1. They want to hand over capacity to London Overground so they can run more services when they (allegedly) get rid of the New Cross route in 2018. But I wouldn't hold my breath too much. Nothing is a guarantee in this business. Remember they said we would have 6-8 London Bridge services after redevelopment was done? Hahahaha.

The New Cross branch trains aren't going anywhere. The extra train units required for the extra Crystal Palace trains will come from the Watford DC line as they're getting new units.

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Posts: 40
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #56
01-01-2017 09:13 PM

Why do the new cross trains still exist? No one uses them

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Posts: 72
Joined: Sep 2009
Post: #57
02-01-2017 11:42 AM

The New Cross trains provide extra capacity up the line in both directions which is useful. However if there is capacity from NXD due to less southern trains this would be a better use of the line.

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Posts: 87
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #58
02-01-2017 04:24 PM

The New Cross overground route is not used a lot because the service frequency isn't good enough. I occasionally go via lower sydenham to shoreditch which is very easy from FH. The obvious route would be lower Syd to New Cross, cross the line to the overground and then straight to Shoreditch but if the train is late which of course never happens i miss the connection and wait 15 mins so i have spent 20 mins on a connection. I don't bother trying any more as it is a rubbish interchange. Despite that a considerable number of people use it and I am sure TFL know that increasing the frequency would make it work as an interchange and so are waiting for the right time to do it rather than closing it down.

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Posts: 802
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #59
08-01-2017 08:03 PM

You wouldn't be able to increase services to New Cross by that much due to the branch being single line only.

LU managed to squeeze 5tph onto the NX branch, while New Cross Gate only had 4tph.

They could run those New Cross trains between Surrey Quays and Dalston Junction running empty to depot and back, but it's better to have it connecting to those Southeastern services than nothing at all.

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Posts: 1,360
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #60
10-01-2017 12:06 PM

Or they could just have a shuttle (like the Drain) between New Cross and Surrey Quays or Canada Water.

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