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Interfaith Walk for Peace
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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #1
06-05-2016 06:52 AM

Sunday 29th May 2016
Starting at Catford Synagogue and visiting two churches, a mosque, and a temple along the route to Lewisham Police station.


   

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #2
06-05-2016 11:54 AM

What a great idea, will really try and get along to support this - I will hold my hands up, i was christened in COE church eyt hardly ever go to church, maybe I should attend more and have some faith

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crassbelch
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Posts: 130
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #3
06-05-2016 12:59 PM

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This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 01:07 PM by crassbelch.

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #4
06-05-2016 03:45 PM

Yeah. I agree. All these narrow minded, dogmatic people who insist their views are the right ones and don't allow for the fact that others think differently to them? Oh wait.....

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crassbelch
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06-05-2016 03:59 PM

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This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 04:00 PM by crassbelch.

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #6
06-05-2016 05:14 PM

It's ironic that 'free thinkers' are usually the ones telling others what they should or shouldn't think! Doesn't seem very free thinking really. You seem an intelligent chap so I'm sure you can see the contradiction. The definition of dogmatic is one who claims that their principles are undeniably true. You do exactly that when you state that you are correct to criticise those who hold different views as violent, dogmatic and brainwashed. As to your comments on atheism, it traces its roots back centuries - again I'm sure you know that. As for science, Newton, Faraday, Fleming, Clerk-Maxwell, Kelvin etc were all strong Christians who didn't see a contradiction between faith and science. Science after all is undeniable as it's the testing of observable theses. I would contend that macro evolution is not strictly science as it's not observed and can't be tested. It's a theory. Micro evolution is science as it can be observed.

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crassbelch
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Post: #7
06-05-2016 05:35 PM

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #8
06-05-2016 11:16 PM

crassbelch Wrote:
Pity we have to go to these lengths to dissuade the religious from their violent tribal tendencies.

I don't think many congregants in these communities have particularly violent tribal tendencies, nor do I think a walk between these places of worship is such an extreme length to go to, especially since it is entirely voluntary.

The whole idea of such walks as I understand it, is to allow people in different communities to understand that each other do not have these violent tribal tendencies, they are actually perfectly normal people who are more inclined to quiet contemplation than violent outbursts.

Sadly there are some people who think one or all faith communities are filled with brainwashed people with violent tribal tendencies. However, I expect that such people are unlikely to attend, which is a shame because they would probably benefit more than most.

Personally I would rather like to go on this walk if I'm free as I have never visited a mosque and I'm just intrigued to look around, just as I was when The Capitol pub opened their upstairs to visitors on an Open House day. But more than that I think it is great for people with different outlooks on life to have a chat, just like we do on this forum (only in off-line mode) which is why I posted the information on this forum.

This post was last modified: 06-05-2016 11:17 PM by michael.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #9
07-05-2016 01:01 PM

Quote:
As for science, Newton, Faraday, Fleming, Clerk-Maxwell, Kelvin etc were all strong Christians who didn't see a contradiction between faith and science.

To openly declare that you you were not religious in the UK until fairly recently would mark someone out as quite odd. These men would need sponsorship so they they could hardly say anything different.

Quote:
Science after all is undeniable as it's the testing of observable theses. I would contend that macro evolution is not strictly science as it's not observed and can't be tested. It's a theory. Micro evolution is science as it can be observed.

No it is as factual as the theory of gravity. We know the mechanisms now.

I think it a good thing that the religious get to know more about each other's (from my perspective) very similar ideas. Perhaps it should be compulsory.

This post was last modified: 07-05-2016 01:02 PM by Perryman.

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oryx


Posts: 203
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #10
08-05-2016 12:13 AM

Whether you like it or not, differing religions are a huge factor in our society and promoting tolerance and understanding between different faiths is a very good thing.

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crassbelch
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Post: #11
08-05-2016 07:59 AM

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michael


Posts: 3,220
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
08-05-2016 08:08 AM

The two approaches are not mutually exclusive. Interfaith initiatives are all about reducing division and fracture. You are targeting the wrong issue as I'm reminded every Sunday when the radio is taken up with hours of religious worship and the shops don't open until 11am and close at 5pm. Doesn't fit with western secular values so much more than an optional interfaith walk.

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #13
08-05-2016 08:22 AM

Perryman, I agree with you that many scientists would have been Christian in name only. If you read Peyps (not a scientist but stay with me) diary it's obvious that some folk went to church regularly whilst living totally immoral lives. The reason I chose that particular list of scientists is that they were undeniably 'Christian' Christians. From their writings you can see that they actually loved God. People like Kelvin and Clerk Maxwell lived in an age where there was plenty of science/religion disputes and they took part in them. The others were clearly Bible believing Christians. So it's not accurate to say that years ago everyone would have been a Christian.

Macro evolution is proven science? Its interesting that you support that, not with any evidence but with a statement that 'we know the mechanisms'. If you'd have said that we've seen and tested the mechanisms i would agree with you. That would be science. Have we really observed and tested evidence?Darwin thought that one species over time would turn into other species by incremental change. Do you have any observable evidence of this? If so please publish immediately in a scientific journal as you will then be given your own TV series and have a boat named after you. Perrymany McPerrymanface....has a ring to it....

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Deano


Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #14
08-05-2016 09:25 AM

Where does the west get these secular values from exactly and what are they? Surely if you don't believe in a God then there is no such thing as objective truth or values that are undeniably true? So these values are changeable. What's right to you isn't necessarily right for me. Logically that means that these values are totally fluid so can't really be described as values at all?

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crassbelch
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Post: #15
08-05-2016 10:11 AM

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Tim Lund


Posts: 255
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #16
08-05-2016 12:03 PM

Deano - you raise some well worked, but nonetheless interesting philosophical issues. The problem about saying values must come from some Divine authority is that it leaves open the question of where that Divine authority came from, and the consequent infinite regress.

Modern secularists can live with this level of uncertainty, and focus more on the evident stability of most systems of morality - so almost all of us accept the "golden rule" of "doing unto others what we would have them do unto us". Rawl's "veil of ignorance" was a 20th century restatement of this, Mill on "self-regarding" actions one in the 19th century. But stable systems are also ones which can adjust - if they don't, they fracture. So in recent decades we've come to see more "others" as being enough like us that as a society we've adjusted previously held moral positions - such as that certain sexual orientations are immoral, or that belief in a God is necessary for living a moral life.

I don't totally accept all of his views, but I thoroughly recommend Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind", which is a serious attempt to approach our ideas of morality empirically.

This post was last modified: 08-05-2016 12:04 PM by Tim Lund.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #17
08-05-2016 02:04 PM

Quote:
The problem about saying values must come from some Divine authority is that it leaves open the question of where that Divine authority came from, and the consequent infinite regress.

I've never understood that argument. If you can ask where X's authority comes from, surely X can't be God? If God exists, she must exist necessarily.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 255
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #18
08-05-2016 02:37 PM

And I've never understood arguments as to why anything which necessarily exisits can have a bearing on how we should lives.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #19
08-05-2016 03:37 PM

I agree that it might be conceivable that there was a necessary being (whom one might call God) who created the universe but was not the ultimate source of values like goodness, truth, beauty and love.

'We for a certainty are not the first
Have sat in taverns while the tempest hurled
Their hopeful plans to emptiness, and cursed
Whatever brute and blackguard made the world.'

This post was last modified: 08-05-2016 03:37 PM by robin orton.

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Tim Lund


Posts: 255
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #20
08-05-2016 05:17 PM

I was trying to use language carefully. When I think of something that necessarily exists, I have in mind such Platonic concepts as "the lowest prime number", which I accept do necessarily exist, but say zilch about how we should conduct ourselves towards our fellow humans.

There is, however, a curious intellectual tendency to think there is something divine about such abstract mathematical ideas, which probably goes back beyond the locus classicus, Plato

It was also there in the Middle Ages, with the development of the ontological argument for the existence of God, had a passing appeal for Bertrand Russell, and an enduring one for Kurt Gödel

So it's not too surprising to see such thinking turning up on a local Forum such as this.

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