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How to stop Jehova's Witnesses?
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robwinton


Posts: 335
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #81
29-11-2007 03:18 PM

RussB Wrote:
You either believe it (and are presumably punished by every other god out there) or you don't (and get punished by all the other gods out there plus this one).


reminds me of the classic Rowan Atkinson sketch and the roll call in Hell ... must be a clip around here somewhere ... gotcha!:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJA9RPX9mRY

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roz


Posts: 1,790
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #82
29-11-2007 03:24 PM

Can atheists not be questioning? I suppose the truth of the matter is this makes them more agnostic than atheist and agnostics would argue that its not possible to prove a negative, hence to be an atheist is by definition not possible either.

Personally I have 'done' a lot of religion growing up, going to Church and two (yes two) Sunday schools every week, went to a Church school, been simultaneously a member of the Girls Brigade and a Brownie , a Sunday School teacher when 14, won loads of Sunday School prizes , own several Bibles ( won as prizes and still have them,) sang in church choirs, however no amount of this ' indoctrination' or whatever ,ever made me believe in God. At 15 I preferred Sunday morning telly to going to church. Programmes on religion but hey, I could stay in bed and watch them.

You could say that my atheism is also a ' faith' in that whilst it may be better to think of oneself as an agnostic, I firmly ' believe' that there is no God, no higher being, no heaven or hell. No evidence either way is required. We are simply here and now As Bugs Bunny would say, ' thats all, folks'.

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robwinton


Posts: 335
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #83
29-11-2007 03:52 PM

Just received an interesting "thought for the day":

People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them.

Rofl

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shzl400


Posts: 729
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #84
29-11-2007 04:01 PM

The Wikipedia article on Agnosticism is quite amusing, in the part where it lists all the different shades of agnostic - I particularly liked: "I don't know, and who cares anyway?" and got confused by: "I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to God. Unless we first figure that out, debates over whether god exists are meaningless."

All I'm concerned about is that weirdos, trying to sell me overpriced cheap tea towels, gas/electricity/phone companies, and their religions of choice keep knocking on my door. There's a mailing preference service and a telephone preference service, but not a "go away" preference service. As advised earlier, I'm considering a note similar to the "no junk mail" stickers you can get (however, in the latter case, I keep the recycling box next to the letter box and about 90% of my mail goes straight in) and the same goes for Betterware and Lakeland Plastics as well. So there! Angry

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #85
29-11-2007 04:12 PM

It's one of the pleasures of living at the top of Taymount Rise - no one can be ****ed to walk up there to convert anyone to anything Smile

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #86
29-11-2007 04:20 PM

And to every sneery sky-pixie-believer who says "Ah, but atheism's just another religion, you see", then retires with a smug smile on their face, I say "Yes. In the same way that 'not playing golf' is a hobby, 'not getting the bus' is a form of transport, and 'no sausages' are food."

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michael


Posts: 3,198
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #87
29-11-2007 04:48 PM

nevermodern Wrote:
It's one of the pleasures of living at the top of Taymount Rise - no one can be ****ed to walk up there to convert anyone to anything Smile


Sounds excellent. I am looking forward to moving there in a few weeks! (fingers crossed, touch wood, baruch hashem, insha'Allah, etc)

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roz


Posts: 1,790
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #88
29-11-2007 08:26 PM

Just watched Channel 4 news and the bit about Christine Odone's speech being banned from some Commonwealth church service in case it offends non believers. If anyones clever enough to post a link to it then it would be good as its relevant to this thread.

Having listened to her speech I can honestly say I find nothing offensive about her argument, ie that people with faith find themselves being ostracised when they demonstrate this by wearing a hijab/ a cross etc and equal opps seems not to apply to Christians. These are fair points. I find it offensive that people think I will be offended. I find it offensive that people worry about offending others if they express their views. Express away, as long as its not on my doorstep and I can reach for the ' off button' if I don't like it, but it is your right ;thankfully we don't live in a country where naming a teddy can land you a custodial sentence.

If non believers choose to attend a church service, they will expect to hear about God- it is hardly going to be a shock. I intend to drag myself to the Horniman Carol service next week as I love the atmosphere, music, and community spirit, and will somehow try to cope with the added side issues of God and Jesus.

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thenutfield


Posts: 235
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #89
29-11-2007 11:25 PM

roz Wrote:
J I intend to drag myself to the Horniman Carol service next week as I love the atmosphere, music, and community spirit, and will somehow try to cope with the added side issues of God and Jesus.


Me too. Its an odd one isnt it. I'm a non-believer, but give me Handel's Messiah, Canterbury Cathedral or a church 'fayre' and I sort of wish I was a Christian!

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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #90
30-11-2007 12:40 AM

roz Wrote:
Just watched Channel 4 news and the bit about Christine Odone's speech being banned from some Commonwealth church service in case it offends non believers. If anyones clever enough to post a link to it then it would be good as its relevant to this thread.

Having listened to her speech I can honestly say I find nothing offensive about her argument, ie that people with faith find themselves being ostracised when they demonstrate this by wearing a hijab/ a cross etc and equal opps seems not to apply to Christians. These are fair points. I find it offensive that people think I will be offended. I find it offensive that people worry about offending others if they express their views. Express away, as long as its not on my doorstep and I can reach for the ' off button' if I don't like it, but it is your right ;thankfully we don't live in a country where naming a teddy can land you a custodial sentence.

If non believers choose to attend a church service, they will expect to hear about God- it is hardly going to be a shock. I intend to drag myself to the Horniman Carol service next week as I love the atmosphere, music, and community spirit, and will somehow try to cope with the added side issues of God and Jesus.


I think this is the one:
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/so...ng/1119662

As one of the atheists I think she's referring to, I'd like to say I don't want to see shows of religious affiliation banned, merely that I don't want to see religion used as excuse to get exceptions from the law. If jewelery is banned in a school, why should crosses be given a special exemption? If it's against the law to discriminate against gay people, why should the Catholic church get an exemption?

Having said that, there's no need to have rules or laws that needlessly persecute the religious, but the option must be available to all it's made available to any one group. It's quite right that parents or pupils can ask for school rules to be changed in a reasonable way, but if a school allows something like the wearing of Christian rings, then everyone must be able to wear rings.

I not sure why the church self-censored this. I don't agree with what she's saying, but I don't see any reason why she shouldn't be allowed to say it. (hat tip to Voltaire there...)

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baggydave


Posts: 384
Joined: May 2004
Post: #91
30-11-2007 10:44 PM

There is one thing that I am into, that is Saints, particularly of the Australian type. You will always have your perfect day.

For the non-believers amongst you here is the link: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=a7q27BISAQ0

Baggy Dave, adding value to every thread.

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Ooperlooper


Posts: 104
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #92
03-12-2007 12:38 AM

Another news report said they stopped her speaking not because it was "too religeous" but rather "too polemic". Indeed it doesn't seem to me to be a very well reasoned argument, more of a rant.

Okay for internet forums but probably not whay the organisation wanted to come across.

She starts off talking about primary age "Christian children", which, as debated earlier in this thread, is arguably rather oxymoronic.

As for whether the kids care about being forced to say grace with or without the word "Lord"...well she obviously doesn't remember much about what it's like to be that age.

She then talks about a muslim girl's legal challenge for the right to wear a headscarf at school. But if you allow a headscarf on the grounds of one belief, why not allow an atheist to wear what they want (say, jeans and a t-shirt), or a West Ham fan to wear their West Ham top? I suspect the school was probably only trying to be practical and fair to everyone, rather than trying to be anti-religious.

She then goes on to suggests that BA banned a woman from wearing a crucifix because the company is run by "God bashers". I think she'll find the company's motive is more likely to be making money, and it's actually because the passengers (of all manner of religions and beliefs) prefer to fly on an airline where the flight attendants are there to keep you happy rather than to promote their own beliefs.

Next, when she suggests that all of the above institutions have "beef with any belief system other than their own Godless one", she seems to be telling us that; a) companies, local authorities and the like have religious beliefs, which is pretty absurd, and b) that avoiding favouring or offending any one particular religion is the same as atheism, which it's clearly not.

She then whinges about mockery - her point, ironically, seeming to be that she would like to rescind the right to freedom of speech.

After all this, she at last makes a reasonable point about the distinction between, say, a school avoiding words like 'Christmas' altogether, and teaching kids about multiple beiefs and customs.

But she then returns to form, claiming that equal rights should apply to beliefs and actions in the same way that it applies to inherent properties such as race, sexual orientation or gender, which is pretty self-evidently unreasonable and unworkable.

It's just a rather dumb speech.

On a related note, just before I finished working at a London local authority about three years ago, I received an internal communications email stating that (I kid ye not) people who followed religions were entitled to an extra three days off per year. The message was accompanied by an enormous list of dates of supposed religious significance (most of the Christian ones, I'd never heard of) from which you had to pick. Atheists were apparently not entitled to these days off!

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roz


Posts: 1,790
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #93
03-12-2007 08:46 AM

On a related note, just before I finished working at a London local authority about three years ago, I received an internal communications email stating that (I kid ye not) people who followed religions were entitled to an extra three days off per year. The message was accompanied by an enormous list of dates of supposed religious significance (most of the Christian ones, I'd never heard of) from which you had to pick. Atheists were apparently not entitled to these days off!
[/quote]

Just let them try!So by the same argument do are atheists not permitted Xmas Day, Good Friday off? If most so called Christians in the UK were required to demonstrate their religious committment then Bank Holidays would be no more. However these days usually coincide with the pagan festivals which gave them their name, ie Easter...

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Ooperlooper


Posts: 104
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #94
03-12-2007 09:50 AM

Well I'm not sure as I left a few days after the notice came around, so didn't bother to dispute it, but there certainly didn't seem to be any mention of atheists being entitled to those days off. If they were entitled to those days off, why not just give everyone 3 extra days off and let them take them whenever they like? What's the advantage to the local authority of tying people down to taking certain days rather than others? Madness.

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