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How to stop Jehova's Witnesses?
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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #41
27-11-2007 12:06 PM

roz Wrote:
French state schools do not permit displays of religious icons or dress. There have been a number of cases where pupils have been suspended for going against this. What do you think- is this the way forward- is a secular approach discriminatory or is it best in a multicultural society as a means to avoiding conflict?


Now there's a difficult issue if ever there was one!

Personally I'm not in favour of banning individual displays of religious symbols or icons per se in schools. However I don't think religion should be an excuse to break general school rules.

If a school has a policy that jewelry isn't allow to be worn at school, then I don't see why children with Christian parents should get special dispensation to wear jewelry depicting a cross. A more obvious example is that children of Sikhs should not be allowed to carry a Kirpan (sword/dagger) at school!

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #42
27-11-2007 12:18 PM

I do think that it's easy to lose sight of what it means to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, actions, foibles and failings. If it's not Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at doors to politely discuss their beliefs, it's people trying to sell the big issue, slightly drunk people outside pubs or - perish the thought - people eating food in a pub: all of these have been gripes on this forum! Sometimes it's about putting up with things that offend you, because life isn't about getting exactly your own way all of the time Smile

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #43
27-11-2007 12:21 PM

sorry...ignore me...i've missed a whole two pages of argument...duh. i'm not awake yet. As you were... Smile

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #44
27-11-2007 12:52 PM

roz Wrote:
French state schools do not permit displays of religious icons or dress. There have been a number of cases where pupils have been suspended for going against this. What do you think- is this the way forward- is a secular approach discriminatory or is it best in a multicultural society as a means to avoiding conflict?


Different people use multicultural in a variety of way, but to me it is about integrating people of different backgrounds, with different opinions, and different cultures into mainstream society. People should not be ashamed of their religion and try to hide it away (nor should they force it on other people - particularly in schools). It is important for children to recognise that they do live in a multi-cultural society and to understand the difference between Christmas, Ramadan, Diwali, and Chanukah. And then they can celebrate as many or as few as they want.

The French policy does nothing to help people of different culture integrate and they have significant problems as a result: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7114521.stm

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #45
27-11-2007 01:01 PM

France doesn't have a monoply on race riots, though, Michael, I'm sure you'll agree. For me, it's a question of balance. The issue of the headscarf in schools, for example - local consultation with Muslim groups as to what constitutes 'modest' clothing, then the formulation of a uniform policy based on that. The case of the Muslim girl who wanted to force her school to allow her to wear the jilbab ended up in the Lords and I think the judgement there was a victory for this kind of pragmatism. I also also think that single-faith schools are utter madness and will do nothing to foster cross-cultural understanding between communities.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #46
27-11-2007 01:17 PM

I completely agree with you NM. We do have to draw the line somewhere and Islam does not demand the wearing of jilbab. But forcing people to dress 'immodestly' or to remove turbans seems completely wrong.

It is a real shame that 75% of Jewish children in this country now go to Jewish schools (although many outside London allow non-Jewish children to attend). They may be good schools but the children attending, and the children at other local schools, miss out on meaningful interaction between faiths.

The government needs a policy of inclusion not exclusion and I would be happy for all faith schools to be abolished as long as the schools make sensible provision for pupils of different faith, and that means abolishing the law that demands daily acts of Christian worship in all state schools.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #47
27-11-2007 01:29 PM

Yes. I went to the local comp growing up and there was a Roman Catholic secondary school right next to us, yet both schools were utterly separated, apart from the regular mass fights. And I totally agree with Michael - the quid pro quo for discouraging single-faith schools has to be a secularisation of state school. One girl I knew at school got round it by persuading her parents to write a letter explaining to the headmaster that their daughter was a white witch and therefore demanded to be excluded from the compulsory act of daily worship. They couldn't legally argue with it, so she got away with it Smile

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robwinton


Posts: 335
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #48
27-11-2007 01:41 PM

never mind those Jehova's Witnesses, it is when the White Witches coming knocking on the door that I get worried!

Smile

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #49
27-11-2007 01:48 PM

Invite them in for tea, Rob. I believe the bourbon is sacred to Wiccans Smile

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millesens


Posts: 65
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #50
27-11-2007 02:01 PM

Although I think they're not just idiots, they actually dangerous idiots because they pro-actively go out to corrupt vulnerable people, filling their heads with hocus pocus and jibberish.

I found the original post very offensive and was wondering why it was allowed at all on the forum.

I have refrained from posting as I was brought up in a family with conflictual religious believes and that thought me that discussing religion and faith is such an impossible task. One of my aunties had enough of the family "feuds" and decided to become a Jehovah?s Witness. It was quite a long process, she had to study a lot and surely show her commitment. I personally disagree with many of this group?s teachings and beliefs (the same is valid for most of the other religions I know of) but I have always admired these people for their dedication (of the non fundamental type!), their extreme politeness and good manners, their very pristine appearances and the little abuse they inflict on their bodies (no drugs, no heavy drinking, no criminal activity, etc). They spend a huge amount of time studying their books and walk the streets to ?spread the word of God? because they truly believe we all have a chance to an eternal and peaceful life. They have strong communities and help each others out. I really don?t think any of them would even envisage going on violent crusades to conquer the infidels or strap themselves with a few bombs and explode buses, nightclubs and hotels to kill evil and convince us all to love their God and abide by their law. So just write a polite notice on your door for their attention and they will never come back, it s easy.

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #51
27-11-2007 02:14 PM

Did anyone get nabbed outside WH Smith the other night? Black man, white woman, asking if you'd heard of Jesus Christ?

I took my usual tack of extreme yet quiet rudeness, suggesting politely that the world will be a better place when people like him are hosed from the streets (NB this is marginally more extreme than my actual view, but it gets the message across).

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #52
27-11-2007 02:24 PM

nevermodern Wrote:
I do think that it's easy to lose sight of what it means to be tolerant of other people's beliefs, actions, foibles and failings. If it's not Jehovah's Witnesses knocking at doors to politely discuss their beliefs, it's people trying to sell the big issue, slightly drunk people outside pubs or - perish the thought - people eating food in a pub: all of these have been gripes on this forum! Sometimes it's about putting up with things that offend you, because life isn't about getting exactly your own way all of the time Smile



Oh! Now my earlier comment makes sense Smile

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #53
27-11-2007 03:49 PM

I actually believe that the church should be pro-active and not just wait for people to go to church. But I do find jehovah's witnesses a nuisance because they come round so frequently.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #54
27-11-2007 07:59 PM

The more churches converted to housing the better for us all.......

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #55
27-11-2007 08:22 PM

The original Christians used to meet in houses. They did not need or have splendid churches.

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Ooperlooper


Posts: 104
Joined: Jun 2006
Post: #56
27-11-2007 10:31 PM

Okay, I appreciate (a little more now, I'm happy to admit, having read many people's kind words about Jehova's Witnesses whom they have known) that they really do believe that they are doing good.

But does the means justify the end?

Is it enough to have good intentions, if what you do actually results in more harm than good?

If I were convinced that cars were evil and that setting fire to them were a good thing, and I went around setting fire to everyone's cars, would that be acceptable?

Most people would say not, but if it weren't just me who believed...if there were a hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand, would there come a point at which the rest of society would accept it, or would it still be wrong?

How about if it weren't burning cars, but the teaching of 'creationism' rather than real natural history or displaying the Ten Commandments in court?

The Ten Commandments:

1. Don't worship any other god but me (that is, the one who brought you out of slavery in Egypt).
2. Don't make an idol and worship it, or I will punish you, your children, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren for it.
3. Don't misuse my name.
4. Work six days a week then once a week don't work, and force your children, your slaves, your livestock and any visitors to your town to follow the same routine.
5. Honour your parents so that you'll live to a ripe old age in the land that I've given you.
6. Don't kill people.
7. Don't shag on the side once you're married.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie about your neighbours.
10. Don't habour a desire for your neighbour's house, wife, slave (male or female), ox, donkey, or any of his other possesions.

If Christianity had never existed and I'd just written the above for the first time ever in human existence and told you that it's the word of god and a manifesto on which to base our legal and ethical lives, you'd all think I was stark raving bonkers.

Is it any less bonkers just because lots of people have faith in it?

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,361
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #57
27-11-2007 10:37 PM

People used to believe that gods lived on Mount Olympus!

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Ian


Posts: 75
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #58
27-11-2007 10:41 PM

So what your saying is, I can harbour a desire my neighbours donkey then?
I wouldn't want to break the law.


One loud voice can make a difference !
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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #59
27-11-2007 10:56 PM

Ooperlooper Wrote:
The Ten Commandments:

1. Don't worship any other god but me (that is, the one who brought you out of slavery in Egypt).
2. Don't make an idol and worship it, or I will punish you, your children, your grandchildren and your great grandchildren for it.
3. Don't misuse my name.
4. Work six days a week then once a week don't work, and force your children, your slaves, your livestock and any visitors to your town to follow the same routine.
5. Honour your parents so that you'll live to a ripe old age in the land that I've given you.
6. Don't kill people.
7. Don't shag on the side once you're married.
8. Don't steal.
9. Don't lie about your neighbours.
10. Don't habour a desire for your neighbour's house, wife, slave (male or female), ox, donkey, or any of his other possesions.


It seems you're working off the beta version of the ten commandments there, from Exodus 20, which Moses smashed in pieces. By the time Yahweh made Moses write them out himself (aside: is this the origin of having to write lines at school?) and put them in the ark of the covenant, they read something like:

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feat of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn.
4. All the first-born are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the fest of weeks, even of the first fruit of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. The fat of my feat shall not remain all night until the morning.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house the the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not sethe a kid in its mother's milk.

Exodus 34, I jest ye not.

For an interesting comparison of the different versions of the ten commandments, I recommend this PDF.

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RussB


Posts: 15
Joined: Oct 2007
Post: #60
27-11-2007 10:59 PM

Ok... so I misspelt a few things there. Without the ability to edit my post, can please I suggest that people read "feast" instead of "feat". Even Yahweh didn't mean "The feat of the unleavened bread..." :S

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