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Gentrification
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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #41
12-01-2016 03:46 PM

I'm not talking about 'picking and choosing the most expensive parts of the country to live in'. I suspect poorer people may rely more on geographical proximity on getting social support from friends and family than do richer people, who can afford to travel regularly and who anyway tend to have more cultural capital to fall back on. So making poorer people move away from their roots, particularly if they have young children , can be more painful.

In any case I do not think ghettoization on the basis of wealth makes for a very happy community.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #42
12-01-2016 03:53 PM

I own a home. My parents live 6000 miles away, my wife's family live 3 hours drive away. I have not have two pennies to rub together but I get on with life. We don't have social support.

I would love to see my family but the cheapest tickets are c£3500 so I Skype them. We get to see my wife's father every six weeks or so.

We live in FH because it is where we could afford. We are running out of space in our flat and in order to get a bigger property we will move out of London. I dont want to but this is what we have to do for a better quality of life. Do I want to? Not really. Will we need to? Yes. But we get on with it. Such is life. I dont moan about it. Where will that get me?

Where do I fit in? Scummy banker or poor serf?

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crassbelch
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Posts: 130
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #43
12-01-2016 04:07 PM

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This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 04:12 PM by crassbelch.

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sandy


Posts: 190
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #44
12-01-2016 04:12 PM

Londorz, have you read the article? I think you'll find that it contains a range of points which goes beyond the usual right or wrong stances. One point that could be made is how the people who work in the services, who are likely in many cases to be less well paid than the newer home owners, coming into the newly gentrified areas will afford to live there or travel in from their further flung areas.

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crassbelch
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Post: #45
12-01-2016 04:17 PM

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sandy


Posts: 190
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #46
12-01-2016 04:20 PM

Those schemes tend not to be benefit people in the services I was thinking more about e.g. people serving in the cafes/bars that are desired in newly gentrified areas - all the Right to Buy, shared ownership etc schemes are beyond the means of low paid workers.

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crassbelch
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Post: #47
12-01-2016 04:45 PM

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sandy


Posts: 190
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #48
12-01-2016 04:55 PM

Not all low paid workers are singletons able to flat share as they may have families. It does mean that some areas will tend to become less mixed communities but maybe not everyone would worry about that.

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simonk


Posts: 24
Joined: Sep 2013
Post: #49
12-01-2016 04:59 PM

Shared ownership schemes are very good but there aren't very many of them as a share of the overall housing stock.

Prices in areas like FH have shot up so fast in recent years that the ability to own is essentially decoupled from earnings. You can spend years saving only to find prices have gone up by more than the amount you saved.

Wealth is now the principal determinant of the ability to buy around here, usually from existing property or from family subsidy. Another way to describe this is luck.

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crassbelch
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Post: #50
12-01-2016 05:00 PM

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #51
12-01-2016 05:24 PM

For all I know (not much), there might indeed be something to be said for attracting more investment bankers to some parts of Wales. (They'd have to learn Welsh, of course, and make sure their children did too.)

This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 05:25 PM by robin orton.

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sandy


Posts: 190
Joined: Oct 2006
Post: #52
12-01-2016 05:30 PM

Concern about mixed communities in one part of the country does not necessarily preclude concerns about them in other parts of the country but the subject was areas that are gentrifying.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #53
12-01-2016 09:09 PM

The whole idea of "gentrification" is a bizarre one. I have yet to see someone with a starched collar and coat walking the streets with a cane going "ra ra, ya ya". If you mean people who work hard, earn money and can afford to buy a chi tea latte then possibly. Why would people dislike this? Does an area that is becoming more affluent (not gentrified, what a stupid expression) upset people so much. So people then open shops to offer chi tea lattes, what is the issue? Cereal shop, so what. If you dont like it dont go in. Only a complete Richard Head would want to deface it or chuck a brick through the window. Should we invite a few Sloane Rangers to deface the local chippie or chuck bricks through the local cafe window as an antithesis?

People, get over yourselves. Rich, poor or somewhere in between, just have fun and be decent people.

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crassbelch
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Post: #54
12-01-2016 09:58 PM

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This post was last modified: 12-01-2016 09:59 PM by crassbelch.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #55
12-01-2016 10:24 PM

We've 'invested in the area', having bought a house here and paid large amounts of council tax over the years. I don't want the area to 'improve' if it means pushing property prices (or indeed rents) beyond the reach of young people who want to bring up their family here (as we did) and driving out poorer people who can only afford subsidised housing.

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equi


Posts: 12
Joined: Mar 2013
Post: #56
13-01-2016 12:58 AM

Leaving aside any argument of social conscious or just 'doing the right thing' do you really want to live amongst PLUs? (People like us). Firstly our society will be all the poorer as such annexing is well proven to exacerbate a city's social problems.

However, back to you. Continue to artificially manage society in that vein, you will find yourself in only a few short years not to be the gentleman but the pauper that owns a house that really should take his money move on as he's not the sort of person we want around here. Nice.

I love all the development and investment - let's have more of it, bring on the bakers, coffee grinders and green grocers with their over priced organic goods, I'll buy it all. But such development should not come at the cost of key public services and a choice to have a gammon and chips with a pint for a fiver at the Capitol if that's what I fancy.

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crassbelch
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Post: #57
13-01-2016 08:28 AM

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This post was last modified: 13-01-2016 08:32 AM by crassbelch.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #58
13-01-2016 10:14 AM

Obviously we all like having some PLUs living nearby, particularly as our next-door neighbours. But I don't believe we should be basing our social or housing policy on that sort of consideration.

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mrcee


Posts: 128
Joined: May 2010
Post: #59
13-01-2016 11:06 AM

It always amuses me when people label themselves left wing or right wing such a narrow perspective on life; I guess its good to belong to a group so I will leave you all to it.

p.s the prove I am wrong approach doesn't mean your right however it leads to an interesting case study of Labeling, Attacking, Overstating; yet to make a conclusion on whether its delusion, boredom or ignorance

This post was last modified: 13-01-2016 11:12 AM by mrcee.

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chrisse23


Posts: 13
Joined: Oct 2013
Post: #60
13-01-2016 02:07 PM

I can't believe I read all this.

Anyway, gentrification. Although it's nice to pontificate on the whys and wherefores of whether gentrification or increasing affluence of an area, the truth is that none of us have any control over it whatsoever. London is littered with luxury housing estates that ended up being slums and cheap tenements that ended up being luxury flats.

Naturally, people congregate where there are other people in similar circumstances or with similar backgrounds to themselves whether they are ghettos or luxury villas and this in turn has a self-reinforcing effect. For example, if there are a number of Chinese people in one place, it makes sense to open a Chinese supermarket. This in turn draws more Chinese people until demand for housing goes up faster than supply and rents and house prices eventually keep out poorer Chinese people who then are forced to either live on the outskirts of the area thus negating the benefit of living near the supermarket or other amenities that have sprung up in the meantime. Of course, the rise in prices attracts investment and speculation which in turn makes the area attractive to other people until eventually, a new richer group moves in forcing the Chinese to either move out to the outskirts (thus driving up prices there) or set up home miles away. Of course, the gentrification undermines the attraction of the area in the first place, the Chinese Supermarket goes bust and is replaced by a Waitrose and the gentrification reaches its natural ceiling and the whole thing starts again somewhere new.

I haven't really thought this through, but unless we introduce laws preventing rent and house price increases, it seems gentrification is an inevitable consequence of the mobility of capital.

Forest Hill may indeed be gentrifying, but there ain't a lot we can do to either support or prevent it.

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