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Extra Trains on Overground - eventually
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squashst


Posts: 129
Joined: Mar 2009
Post: #1
13-10-2015 07:41 AM

Saw this on Brockley Central

TfL has confirmed plans to introduce two more East London Line trains between Dalston and Crystal Palace from 2018, which would increase the frequency of ELL trains through Brockley at peak time from eight trains per hour to ten.

The scheme to deliver a 25% capacity increase on the line has been necessitated by the phenomenal growth of passenger journeys on the East London Line, which has outstripped the rest of the London Overground network

In 2014, East London Line trains were lengthened, to add 25% more capacity, but even this has not proved enough as Greater Brockley continues to draw more and more commuters into its gaping maw. As Huw Edwards, head of programme delivery at London Overground, commented:

“If we stretched and sweated the fleet, we believe we could be running an 18tph service between Shoreditch and New Cross Gate. But the reality is, that’s not where demand is – the demand is south… so the next discussion to be had with the industry is ‘can we sweat two additional paths south of New Cross Gate’.”

The new service from will be introduced in 2018 subject to the availability of paths being confirmed by Network Rail.

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michael


Posts: 3,216
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #2
13-10-2015 08:15 AM

That's great news as long as it doesn't mean a reduction in trains to London Bridge. It has seemed quite likely for a few years that two additional services to Crystal Palace should be possible in the Overground timetable, but it can be difficult to fit this with Southern services. It is possible that the Bermondsey dive-under and the reopening of platforms at London Bridge may make the paths between london Bridge and New Cross Gate a little more manageable.

And as somebody pointed out on the FH Soc facebook page yesterday, with Crossrail going through Whitechapel - providing fast connections to the West End, Paddington, and Heathrow - there will be even more demand on Overground.

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #3
13-10-2015 11:20 AM

Whitechapel is certainly going to get much busier than it is now once Crossrail opens. It may relieve some pressure at Canada Water which is a nightmare all day to interchange for the Jubilee currently thanks to TfL/LU's insistence that only one escalator can be used from the northbound ELL platform.

I believe they have two spare paths per hour for these additional services already.

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lacb


Posts: 623
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #4
13-10-2015 12:09 PM

Yes agreed, good news, but is this going to be enough? Could also divert the mostly empty New Cross trains to Crystal Palace too. I think with signalling improvements the paths would be there and there is unused platform space at Crystal Palace to turn them around too.

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #5
13-10-2015 04:20 PM

Obviously we don't know what TfL's plans are, but as seen when London Bridge closed, London Overground added additional trains to CP by diverting the New Cross services.

I won't be surprised if TfL reduce services to New Cross to every 30 minutes during the peaks which would allow them to provide this new service without any new rail units or staff.

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michael


Posts: 3,216
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
13-10-2015 04:56 PM

In the past the reasoning for running the New Cross branch has been that it enabled more services on the core section, but the announcement recognised that the main demand is south of New Cross Gate (actually between Brockley and Canada Water) rather than further north.

This means that the New Cross branch has little justification any longer except possibly as an easy transfer to national rail services to Lewisham and Kent.

But I doubt that TfL would reduce any services to 30 minute intervals as it goes against the grain of train planning. More likely would be the end of the New Cross branch, but I don't think they will bother as they can still run that number of trains through the central section, until there is more demand on the Peckham branch.

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lacb


Posts: 623
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
13-10-2015 05:49 PM

Yes agreed, 30 minutes would seem to go against the Overground 'turn up and go' mantra.

Another thing I have just picked up from the TfL document re night services - we know they are only going South as far as New Cross Gate but the reasoning is this:

Quote:
Other LO services operate mainly on Network Rail infrastructure
where maintenance is usually carried out on weekend nights. Routes are shared
with freight trains which operate overnight during the week, limiting access to the
network.


Maintenance we know about but we already lose the Overground day services for whole weekends for this so it seems strange to not provision night services on that basis.

Am also curious to know which freight trains these are which share ELL routes. Am generally a sound sleeper but am surprised that I have never noticed these.

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #8
13-10-2015 06:03 PM

The SLP is reporting the Clapham Junction branch is also receiving an extra 2 trains per hour.

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/articl...Overground

This could see the end of the New Cross branch except for a token parliamentary service, as seen with the 1 train per day to and from Battersea Park.

This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 06:04 PM by rbmartin.

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lacb


Posts: 623
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #9
13-10-2015 09:47 PM

I don't think the extra 2 Clapham Junction services from 2019 are funded yet:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/rup-20151016-p...growth.pdf

This post was last modified: 13-10-2015 09:48 PM by lacb.

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 459
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #10
13-10-2015 11:11 PM

I must say I've long questioned the existence of the New Cross branch, especially when New Cross gate is 5 mins walk away.
I used to think it was to ensure regular trains going East but surely trains could still terminate at New Cross gate and at least give us a chance to get on a Southern rail train.

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Decker


Posts: 116
Joined: Nov 2014
Post: #11
13-10-2015 11:52 PM

As part of the redevelopment of London Bridge, Forest Hill was suppose to get an additional 2 trains per hour from London Bridge.


However, given this year's congestion at LB I wouldn't be surprised if they are just going to give up on it and let the ELL take the capacity past New Cross Gate.


New Cross? They are better off setting up 2 free shuttle buses from New Cross to New Cross Gate. Given the total over subscription of the FH route, they need to change it regardless. The initial set up just isn't warranted anymore.

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #12
14-10-2015 12:25 PM

To be fair, the ELL really does need that extra capacity over the LB trains. It's helped that most peak services have longer carriages which has relieved issues on Southern trains.

Crossrail at Whitechapel will make those already heaving ELL trains even busier.

This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 12:25 PM by rbmartin.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #13
14-10-2015 01:24 PM

yeah only got to wait another 4-5 years when the crowding will be at a insane level

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 459
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #14
14-10-2015 07:23 PM

ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup
HA! couldn't agree more, and my worry is..when we do get the extra trains we'll be absailing over the tracks at Canada Water in order to connect to the Jubillee line.Rolleyes

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #15
15-10-2015 12:33 PM

Reading elsewhere that LOROL will have all of our trains terminating at Highbury and Islington again from the December timetable change with the Clapham Junction trains terminating at Dalston Junction.

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Azira


Posts: 33
Joined: Mar 2014
Post: #16
15-10-2015 01:28 PM

Quote:
Am also curious to know which freight trains these are which share ELL routes. Am generally a sound sleeper but am surprised that I have never noticed these.


I saw one at around 7:00am this week. First time I've ever seen one, but I do hear them later at night too.

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hertburs


Posts: 34
Joined: Sep 2013
Post: #17
15-10-2015 01:55 PM

I always find it odd that if you miss a train going through Forest Hill, you have to wait until after the New Cross and Clapham Junction trains for the next West Croydon or Crystal Palace train. Wouldn't it make more sense to alternate these services so you only had to wait for one train to go through or is this too simple?

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rbmartin


Posts: 796
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #18
15-10-2015 03:23 PM

Quote:
I always find it odd that if you miss a train going through Forest Hill, you have to wait until after the New Cross and Clapham Junction trains for the next West Croydon or Crystal Palace train. Wouldn't it make more sense to alternate these services so you only had to wait for one train to go through or is this too simple?


That is what they're appearing to be doing with the change to the timetable.

A look at Real Train Trains for Wednesday 16th December shows the new service pattern at 1700 at Canada Water.

1701 West Croydon
1706 Clapham Junction
1709 Crystal Palace
1712 New Cross

This means a wait of seven minutes per train to Forest Hill and HOP instead of the current 5 min gap between the West Croydon and Crystal Palace trains, then 10 mins before the next West Croydon.

Northbound trains will operate every seven minutes from Forest Hill to Highbury and Islington.

Southern trains from Forest Hill to London Bridge will operate off-peak at x15, x22, x45 and x52. This means Southern services will operate at uneven times off-peak due to Victoria services starting earlier.

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lacb


Posts: 623
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #19
10-03-2016 04:17 PM

Could be just a throwaway reference, but buried in a National Infrastructure Commission report is a map showing Overground extension to Bromley North. It looks like this is an extension of the New Cross branch (figure 3.3):
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...100316.pdf

If this gets the go ahead, would probably limit any further capacity improvements via Forest Hill. If they did everything shown could reduce demand though.

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John Daker


Posts: 47
Joined: Apr 2015
Post: #20
10-03-2016 06:00 PM

The orbitals look very interesting and its what South London really needs.

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