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Forest Hill Pool
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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #81
15-02-2008 02:42 PM

gingernuts Wrote:
Well, I think if you look at the Goveernment bid for the Olympic Games, you can see that the funding for any project doesnt have to to be in place before commitment. The question is, once the work has started, will they continue to fund the pools project in Forest Hill? Worst possible outcome is that they bulldoze the old victorian building and then decide that they can no longer afford a pool, so just build a block of monster flats.


I really think this scenario is highly unlikely. Even if the council have been slow to work out what needs to be done and have commissioned a series of useless reports and consultations that failed to get to the key issues of suitability of the existing building, their hearts are in the right place and, like everybody else, they wish to see swimming in Forest Hill.

2010 is an election year for the local councillors and Mayor. They will do everything they can to deliver on their commitments in this timescale if they want to continue in their jobs.

Since Councillor Best has an identity on SE23.com it is possible to send her a PM (private message) to ask questions and I think they will automatically be directed to her email account. She did say earlier in this thread:

cllr chris best Wrote:
I am the Cabinet Member for Community Services that includes leisure facilities and I would be pleased to hear your views on a new leisure facility.

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #82
15-02-2008 03:55 PM

Looking at the design and possible materials, this was in Capita August 2005 report when having the new pools by spring 2008 was considered possible.

Quote:
The effect of the Olympic projects on inflation in the London building industry has yet to be determined but there is likely to be a shortage of skilled labour in the region. The impact of this on any project at Forest Hill could be reduced through the use of modern materials with a significant element of ?factory finishing? and less reliance on skilled on-site ?wet trades? ? it is anticipated that inflation would have a greater impact on the refurbishment options than those involving new build.


Regarding the management of the pool would it make sense for the council to manage it for the first year as it seems the current contracts for the other pools in Lewisham come up for renewal in 2011. If it was me I'd probably be naughty and delay completion till October 2006 and offer all 5 pools up for external management and investment. From the August 2005 report....

Quote:
It is recommended that any new Forest Hill contract should be made coterminal with the present PFI agreement with Parkwood Leisure (October 2011) so as to allow all sites (with the exception of Downham) to be retendered as a single package. This will limit the number of contractors with which the Council will need to operate in the long term. However, the three years available may be too short to attract any serious bidders or a competitive price and other, more cost effective approaches should be explored.

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #83
18-02-2008 02:28 PM

    Here are indicative drawings by Capita based on the scheme currently adopted by the Mayor. This was Option 6 in August 2005 and designed to fit the footprint of the existing Forest Hill pools.

    It consisted of a 25m pool, 20m learner pool, fitness suite with 40 stations, aerobics room, solarium, activity/party room, small cafe/vending area, creche plus wet and dry changing rooms.

The cost was estimated in 2005 as ?6.7M now it is said to cost ?9.5M.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #84
18-02-2008 02:36 PM

What a dull building.

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gingernuts


Posts: 505
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #85
18-02-2008 02:44 PM

They are going to plant really big trees or are they already there??

I'm also amazed by how much the budget has increased? How is this possible?

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Renzon


Posts: 30
Joined: Jun 2007
Post: #86
18-02-2008 03:29 PM

The success of the new building depends a lot on the details. These two sketch perspectives above do not give any indication of quality of materials, details and junctions. And they don't show the building in its context.

Personally, I am not too enamoured of the external perspective. But the internal view could look quite dramatic, if those curved roof trusses could made of timber. But then again, maybe I am being too optimistic.....

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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #87
18-02-2008 04:34 PM

Renzon Wrote:
Personally, I am not too enamoured of the external perspective. But the internal view could look quite dramatic, if those curved roof trusses could made of timber. But then again, maybe I am being too optimistic.....


I think we have had enough of timber roof trusses in swimming pools

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #88
19-02-2008 12:54 AM

This is from the original options review regarding a new build.

Quote:
In terms of external appearance, any new build replacement of the existing building would need to have similar Civic qualities and richness of detailing albeit in a modern idiom. The intention would be to explore the potential of creating interesting and animated facades to both Dartmouth Road, and the Park on the north side, rather than a ?Frontage? fa?ade as existing.

The location of fitness and dance facilities on the Dartmouth Road frontage at first floor level, together with the main entrance, and use of large areas of glazing would provide a lively ?showcase? for the centre, particularly at night. The location of the pool and cr?che alongside the park would create a more restful and natural atmosphere, appropriate to the activities within.

The form of the building is envisaged as having a dynamic sweeping roof, with a glazed pavilion-like fa?ade to the park side and a curved front fa?ade.

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #89
19-02-2008 01:35 AM

These are plans Capita produced as an example for Option 6 to fit the new pools on the existing pool site.
   
The ground floor is on the left with a guide and key to the various elements below the first floor plan.

With Louise House being demolished will it mean the facility will now be bigger than Option 6? Alternatively could money be saved by doing away with the lift and having everything on the ground floor?

Or will it remain the same size, leaving a bigger plot for a developer?

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #90
19-02-2008 10:24 AM

ForestGump Wrote:
Here are indicative drawings by Capita based on the scheme currently adopted by the Mayor. This was Option 6 in August 2005 and designed to fit the footprint of the existing Forest Hill pools.

It consisted of a 25m pool, 20m learner pool, fitness suite with 40 stations, aerobics room, solarium, activity/party room, small cafe/vending area, creche plus wet and dry changing rooms.

The cost was estimated in 2005 as ?6.7M now it is said to cost ?9.5M.



Just looking at the first picture, not doubting you FG but the current pool and building lie on a slope, that view is flat so unless they plan to excavate a heck of a lot of spoil I dont think that is our pool or it has been rendered by the same "optimistic" people that have drawn the grounds to the flats on the South side of the railwaySneaky

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patio


Posts: 1
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #91
19-02-2008 10:42 AM

So i just read the statement from the 13th of feb 08. This is unbelievable! 10 years or more of neglect under useless management, 2 years of 'consultation' and then a snap decision by the mayors office to demolish it and build new. What a sham what a scam. Mr Bullock OBE or whatever you are - I saw you stand one of those now pointless meetings about the future of the pools and promise that there would continue to be swimming on the site. Pull your finger out and sort it!

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #92
19-02-2008 10:55 AM

Londondrz Wrote:
Just looking at the first picture, not doubting you FG but the current pool and building lie on a slope, that view is flat so unless they plan to excavate a heck of a lot of spoil I dont think that is our pool or it has been rendered by the same "optimistic" people that have drawn the grounds to the flats on the South side of the railwaySneaky


Maybe the designers think when it comes to access to sport everyone should start on a level playing field?

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #93
19-02-2008 11:39 AM

The Council website carries news of the Mayor's decision which includes the following...

Quote:
Sir Steve Bullock accepted the recommendations of Council officers and engineering experts at a meeting of the Mayor and Cabinet on 13 February....It came as a real blow to find that the work needed to refurbish the pool was much greater than we anticipated.?

Several surveys of the pool were conducted by engineers showed the pools are beyond repair. Attempts to refurbish them would result in spiralling costs. Steve said: ?Faced with that fact, I took the only responsible decision that someone in my position could do ? replace the Victorian building with a modern 21st century building.


Sorry, but I am getting fed up with the 'poor me' line the Mayor keeps taking. Did he not notice since 2003 the reviews, reports and surveys put before him regarding concerns about the pools?

In their Options Review of August 2005 (prior consultation) Capita recommended that...

Quote:
Option One (total refurb) should not be taken forward in view of its high costs against the risk of failure.

therefore I don't understand why only the two options were put forward for consultation and the Mayor was left with a decision two months prior to an election.

According to the latest report to the Mayor it sates Capita were asked to produce only 2 options within a ?4-5m budget. Well thankfully there appears to have been a major communication breakdown and Capita misunderstood their brief, or did they?

Quote:
In discussion with key stakeholders, we have agreed that our Project Objective is

?to prepare a simple Design and Costing exercise to investigate eight
options as to the refurbishment of all or part of the existing buildings
and/or redevelopment of the Forest Hill Pools to provide a 25 metre
pool and/or learner pool.?

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michael


Posts: 3,210
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #94
19-02-2008 12:08 PM

In the cabinet meeting the Mayor said that he 'made no apology for being the last on the council to change his mind'. He had wanted the refurbishment to go ahead given the strongly held views of people in the public meetings during 2005/2006 where their was a strong demand not just for a two pool solution, but keeping the existing building.

The mistake in 2005 was not asking Capita to include the Louise House site in their considerations. Apparently the site was 'not available' at the time, but since then it has become available.

It is a real shame that 2 years have been wasted but wa can now look forward to the new pool, with construction/demolition beginning in 2009 and completion in the summer of 2010. We need to make sure these timescales do not slip.

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roz


Posts: 1,793
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #95
19-02-2008 01:13 PM

It is a real shame that 2 years have been wasted but wa can now look forward to the new pool, with construction/demolition beginning in 2009 and completion in the summer of 2010. We need to make sure these timescales do not slip.
[/quote]

Michael, whilst we need this project to get under way and succeed, I have to say that this timescale seems very short given the committment to consultation and EU procurement requirements for selecting designers and contractors, which the Council needs to comply with. What we want is a properly thought out and constructed development, not a rush job conceived out of guilt and concern about concealing past errors as quickly as possible. Nor should the Council leaders be raising public expectations out of panic. This pool reasonably needs another year in the design and procurement/consultation phase of its life including obtaining planning permission, followed by at least 15- 18 months in construction. That takes us to spring 2012 at least. If the Council are saying otherwise they must know something about EU tendering procedures and their own planning system that the rest of us don't. I dont know how old Wavelengths is but it probably preceded the new EU arrangements, so was possible in a shorter time frame.

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #96
19-02-2008 02:50 PM

The Londonist mentions FH Pools today:

http://londonist.com/2008/02/goodbye_londons.php

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nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #97
19-02-2008 02:51 PM

And the London Pools campaign:

http://www.saveladywellpool.com/2008/02/12#a726

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #98
19-02-2008 06:01 PM

Roz:
Wavelengths is managed under an investment contract by Parkwood Leisure and the planning application was under their name rather than the council's.

So EU public authority procurement procedures would not have applied at Wavelengths?

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ForestGump


Posts: 202
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #99
19-02-2008 06:48 PM

michael Wrote:
In the cabinet meeting the Mayor said that he 'made no apology for being the last on the council to change his mind'. He had wanted the refurbishment to go ahead given the strongly held views of people in the public meetings during 2005/2006 where their was a strong demand not just for a two pool solution, but keeping the existing building.

The mistake in 2005 was not asking Capita to include the Louise House site in their considerations. Apparently the site was 'not available' at the time, but since then it has become available.

It is a real shame that 2 years have been wasted but wa can now look forward to the new pool, with construction/demolition beginning in 2009 and completion in the summer of 2010. We need to make sure these timescales do not slip.


Michael:
I believe the Council's social services abandoned Louise House in 2004 and it was then boarded up in 2005. I attended a public meeting where questions regarding the use of Louise House were raised, they went unanswered by officers and elected representatives.

If Louise House was not available Capita were not informed, as their 15 August 2005 Development Option Review refers to demolishing Louise House and build a pool on the site. An option that was only withdrawn because the site was too small.

Maybe people should work out what the timescale should be according to the Council and chase them up when things go 'quiet'? Maybe have a countdown clock on the website to 31 January 2010. Sneaky

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NewForester


Posts: 377
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #100
19-02-2008 08:38 PM

While sad to see the demise of the historic pools, it would be fantastic if the council built a proper sports centre, with squash courts and an indoor arena that could be used for five-a-side football, netball, badminton, tennis etc if we are to see genuine redevelopment of the Louise House / Pool / Parklet area. However, I fear that the inclusion of Louise House is merely a pretense to increase the area to be sold off for housing so some developer can get rich Sad

For anyone who wants to see the original 15 options, the documents can be found here on the Lewisham website. The 15 options were reduced to two; one refurbishment and one rebuild. The rebuild option provided for a single, six lane 25m pool. I really hope we end up with a better facility.

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