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Manor Mount one-way system
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Devonish Forester


Posts: 62
Joined: Nov 2015
Post: #61
18-01-2016 12:18 AM

Hi Absolutely, thanks for this.

I am fairly new to the area, so not aware of the history of traffic management.

Unfortunately, the reduction of traffic on one street, often simply diverts the traffic into a neighbouring street to the detriment of a different set of residents.

Decker makes the point (above) in this thread that:

“Having it (Manor Mount) open doesn't solve anything because it just relocates a traffic problem from a main road, to a residential street ….Traffic should be on Honor Oak/London Rd/South Circular.”

But Honor Oak Road is also residential - just as much as Manor Mount – perhaps more residential in that more residents live there as it is a longer road than Manor Mount and with many more dwellings (also an infant school).

One could also argue that Devonshire Road needs traffic reduction more than Manor Mount, Davids Road, and Waldenshaw Road, because it is 100% residential and has more residents than Manor Mount, Davids and Waldenshaw.

I do have some sympathy with some drivers turning into Manor Mount from Honor Oak Road. On a bad day it can take 15 minutes to get through the lights from Honor Oak Road onto the South Circular, and the lawful alternative is an even worse queue on Devonshire Road. If someone is late for something important it is frustrating to be held up, especially if there appears to be no good reason for the 'No Entry' into Manor Mount.

Whichever local politician can come up with a feasible and equitable traffic scheme would have my vote, regardless of their other policies!

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Absolutely


Posts: 4
Joined: Jul 2014
Post: #62
18-01-2016 09:30 AM

Thanks for this, Devonish.

I have to say I'm with Decker: [i]“Having it (Manor Mount) open doesn't solve anything because it just relocates a traffic problem from a main road, to a residential street ….Traffic should be on Honor Oak/London Rd/South Circular.”
[/I

Yes, lots of people live along Honor Oak Road - just as they live along London Road and the rest of the South Circular - but these are nonetheless main roads, both historically and in the way they are now designed, with traffic lights, pedestrian crossings and bus routes etc along them. To decant traffic from them onto a steep and winding residential road like Manor Mount - there to confront the Sainsbury's lorries coming UP - defies logic and would create chaos.

I do have a lot of sympathy with Devonshire Road residents. If memory serves, the thinking 'way back when' was that new speed humps along its length (and adjoining roads) would deter traffic from using it to cut out the South Circular. It clearly hasn't worked. But opening-up Manor Mount isn't the way to solve that problem either.

I'm afraid I've no sympathy with people who flout the one-way rule at the top of Manor Mount; they are a menace to oncoming traffic, cyclists and pedestrians alike; not least because of the dangerous speeds they tend to reach by the time they get to the bottom of the hill and try to take that right-hander into Davids Road. (See previous post from Londondrz.)

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Devonish Forester


Posts: 62
Joined: Nov 2015
Post: #63
18-01-2016 11:25 AM

Just to be clear, I do not condone driving that risks injury to anyone or damage to property.

Traffic is like water. If the channels designed to hold it are untenable, then the water finds other routes. People understandably do lose patience sitting in stationary traffic. If they are late for an important appointment, or risk financial penalty for being late for a job, then it is not surprising that some may run through a 'No Entry' sign when they know it will save them 10 vital minutes.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #64
18-01-2016 11:44 AM

Devonish, there is a primary school on waldenshaw Road and a Nursery on St. David's Road. Another reason to keep it one way.

The traffic calming measures seem to attract people who drive company vehicles. I can usually tell the time by the noise a local trade suppliers delivery van doing kangaroo jumps down Waldenshaw Road in the evening.

Sitting in traffic is frustrating but no meeting is worth a large fine and 3 (and possibly more dependent on driving style) points on anyones license.

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Perryman


Posts: 820
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #65
18-01-2016 11:50 AM

Quote:
Yes, lots of people live along Honor Oak Road - just as they live along London Road and the rest of the South Circular - but these are nonetheless main roads, both historically and in the way they are now designed, with traffic lights, pedestrian crossings and bus routes etc along them.

Honor Oak Road is not historically a main road. It is a narrow, twisty and hilly residential Rd. The P4 is designed for such roads.
Forcing its use as a main road is the underlying mistake that causes many other problems.

The road that historically connected Peckham to Sydenham perhaps back to the roman times is Wood Vale which is mostly wide, flat and straight.
But the residents on this road are even richer than those on Manor Mount and have long ago successfully repelled through traffic and bus routes.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #66
18-01-2016 01:22 PM

I well remember when Manor Mount was open. You saved precious little time going that way because so many others did too and we all had to wait to make that left-hand turn back onto the South Circ. Reopening it would just cause those tailbacks to build up again and we're all back where we started. I find it's usually just as quick to go round the South Circ as to take any of the so-called rat runs.

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152047
No Longer Registered

Posts: 135
Joined: Jan 2011
Post: #67
18-01-2016 01:36 PM

I am with Devonish on this one and I don't think that the arguments against making Manor Mount two way are really that convincing.

The best argument for keeping Manor Mount one way is probably that the local residents like it that way. That's fine but the reasons cited for preserving the current position could be dealt with by traffic calming measures, cameras and the odd bit of policing.

Making the road two way again would have the positive effect of releasing pressure on the junction with Honor Oak Road and the South Circular where you are often prevented from exiting because inconsiderate drivers already on the South Circular have either gone through on red or are blocking the exit.

The only real negative I can see from making Manor Mount two-way again is that it would reduce the number of gaps in traffic between the exit from David's Road onto the South Circular and the junction with Devonshire Road. That would probably make it harder to exit Devonshire Road and the queue there worse.

Unfortunately, when it comes to traffic flows on and around the South Circular during rush hour, we are probably talking about moving deckchairs on the Titanic and so it is probably not worth getting too excited about this issue.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #68
18-01-2016 02:21 PM

The most convincing argument for keeping the current configuration is the ambulance station at the top of David's Road. Given that we are just moving traffic from one place to another, allowing the ambulances the advantage must be right.

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michael


Posts: 3,252
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #69
18-01-2016 04:27 PM

If the roads are suitable for the ambulance station, then move the ambulance station - don't change all the roads to fit in with a more movable service. I'm still not sure why they don't move the ambulances into the fire station on Stanstead Road rather than using a small back street.

Not that I'm in favour of changing the one way system. I remember what the queue was like on David's Road before the no entry sign. In fact I think I remember it when cars could go both ways on David's Road (rather slowly as they weaved past each other). Can anybody confirm if this is a real memory?

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Devonish Forester


Posts: 62
Joined: Nov 2015
Post: #70
18-01-2016 07:51 PM

Hi Perryman - these are interesting points you make

"The road that historically connected Peckham to Sydenham perhaps back to the Roman times is Wood Vale which is mostly wide, flat and straight.
But the residents on this road are even richer than those on Manor Mount and have long ago successfully repelled through traffic and bus routes."


Doesn't Wood Vale still offer this route? I think it does, but not the other way around - Sydenham to Peckham - as there is a No Right Turn into Wood Vale from the South Circular. Also Wood Vale has a No Right Turn into the South Circular towards Lordship Lane / Dulwich - there would need to be traffic lights to facilitate that turn across multiple lanes of traffic. This may also be why the road has not been used for a bus route, although the 63 does a 180 degree turn on Forest Hill Road junction with the Northern end of Wood Vale.

Not wanting to be cynical, but perhaps you have a point that the wealthier streets tend claim designation as 'residential' and 'unsuitable for through traffic'. I think this is happening across London, but it doesn't mean everyone has to put up with it.

In several locations in and around Forest Hill, it is hard to see the situation continuing as it is now. Dangerous as it may be to drive (illegally) into Manor Mount from Honor Oak Road, it appears far more dangerous to attempt a (legal) right turn out of Forest Hill Station car park - driving into traffic which is unsighted coming fast around two bends, also lots of pedestrian activity. The junction at Waldram Crescent and Devonshire Road is also extremely dangerous.

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #71
19-01-2016 11:10 AM

It is interesting to compare the response Southwark had for a similar problem:
http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/...?5,1625775

It is an good point re Wood Vale. It is very much to the detriment of Devonshire Road residents that this wider road is restricted for rat running.

Have tried, on more than one occasion, to ask Lewisham to consider changes to Devonshire Road traffic flow but they insist that it is an important route for emergency services. As with the Manor Mount argument, this seems like the tail wagging the dog.

Am now wondering whether other initiatives, such as traffic calming on Honor Oak Park, which has its own speeding issues anyway, could result in more traffic opting to stay on the South Circular, which may not feel like it but is probably faster anyway. This would reduce the demand on Devonshire Road, Honor Oak Road and Manor Mount. Could that work?

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #72
19-01-2016 12:44 PM

Lacb, if you search these archives you will find an old post on Manor Mount. Before it, and other local roads became 20 mph at was a 30 mph zone. The council and TFL put is speed monitors, one on Waldenshaw Road and one on Manor Mount. Waldenshaw had an average of around 25 mph, Manor Mount had an average of c40 mph, the wrong way down Manor Mount!!!!!!!!!!

Both roads are too small to sustain heavy useage and Manor Mount and St. David's Roads are way too small for two way traffic.

Plus, take away to resident parking to make them two way (particularly on St. David's) and pressure is once more passed onto the already crowded local roads.

Leave things as they are and there is the occasional backup. So we are 5 minutes late for something, so what. What is so important that 5 minutes is that bad?

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #73
19-01-2016 01:05 PM

Quote:
Leave things as they are and there is the occasional backup.


Are you serious Londondrz? There are tailbacks on Devonshire Road, Honor Oak Park & Honor Oak Road daily. All of which sits there chucking out fumes in residential areas which are already a subject of pollution monitoring.

Am not concerned with people being late, though it is not me you need to convince. It is those that use rat runs who have that focus.

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Devonish Forester


Posts: 62
Joined: Nov 2015
Post: #74
19-01-2016 01:23 PM

Londonrz

Both roads are too small to sustain heavy usage and Manor Mount and St. David's Roads are way too small for two way traffic.

Is Manor Mount narrower than Ewelme Road, Woodcombe Crescent, Benson Road, or Devonshire Road? Ewelme and Benson look just as steep as Manor Mount, so if steepness is a criteria they should be 'No Entry' too. They certainly have a greater claim on the basis of being 100% residential unlike Manor Mount and Waldenshaw which provide access to: car park, supermarket, hair salon, cafe, restaurant ....

Perhaps Wood Vale could reasonable be asked to share more of the traffic - many of the dwellings are set back quite a way from the road, and much of the road is alongside the cemetery.

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Ligersaur


Posts: 60
Joined: Sep 2014
Post: #75
19-01-2016 01:42 PM

Quote:
Have tried, on more than one occasion, to ask Lewisham to consider changes to Devonshire Road traffic flow but they insist that it is an important route for emergency services.


After a quick peruse, I found this booklet of UK road signs.

Could you not use:

1. a "no entry" sign as found at top left of page 16 of the booklet; and



2. an "except for buses and cycles" exemption plate as found at bottom right of page 18?



I imagine that this would also allow emergency vehicle access in view of the bus exception (not that emergency vehicles are all buses, but I suppose that emergency vehicles are allowed to pass though this sign - please correct me).

I have sometimes seen local community support buses using this route and it would be good not to exclude them. I don't see a reason that their continued access would be a problem as the blockages are due to the volume of cars queueing both ways.

Another option would be to include an "except for access" exemption sign as found at page 18 of the booklet. This signs would likely be often ignored (my reasoning is that people are happy to ignore a local no entry sign).

Traffic of all form would still be allowed to enter Devonshire Road from the South Circular so as not to cause a blockage of the route (as sometimes occurs with cars queuing onto Devonshire Road) and over-heigh vehicles still be able to use the route to avoid the bridge.

This post was last modified: 19-01-2016 01:44 PM by Ligersaur.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #76
19-01-2016 08:25 PM

Lacb, I use Honour oak all the time. I once had to wait four changes of lights before I could be on my way. I didnt mind, I was sat in my car, radio was on. Car is a tree hugging, bunny kissing eco mobile the engine was off.

We live in london, it is always chocked. Compare the traffic during term time and on holidays. Holidays means no cars, school days means we all sit in traffic.

My point is not the congestion, it is that using the likes of Manor Mount as two way streets, it was made one way as it was dangerous.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #77
19-01-2016 08:27 PM

Devonshire, none of those roads cuts off a corner of the South Circular which people us as a rat run. Yes the other roads are busy but in the councils eyes not as busy as Manor mount/ St.David's hence their decision to make them one way.

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BT


Posts: 163
Joined: Jul 2003
Post: #78
20-01-2016 07:43 AM

As to dangerous driving the wrong way down Manor Mount. Some years ago I was waiting in the line of traffic on HOP just before Manor Mount and a car just in front of me suddenly decided he was going to risk going down Manor Mount, and REVERSED in and travelled AT SPEED in REVERSE all the way down. Scared

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #79
20-01-2016 09:39 AM

Quote:
Compare the traffic during term time and on holidays. Holidays means no cars, school days means we all sit in traffic.


On this basis, there shouldn't be tailbacks on Honor Oak Road at the weekend but there are. I spent roughly 15 minutes on a P4 last Saturday waiting to access the South Circular on Honor Oak Road.

Quote:
Devonshire, none of those roads cuts off a corner of the South Circular which people us as a rat run. Yes the other roads are busy but in the councils eyes not as busy as Manor mount/ St.David's hence their decision to make them one way.


Am not disputing the logic of Manor mount being one way but the rat run assertion doesn't hold either. Devonshire Road is definitely used as a rat run as Honor Oak Road and Brockley Rise are so busy. It is not suitable for 2 way traffic either, in fact certainly narrower in parts than Manor Mount and probably along its entire length except where it becomes the South Circular.

I don't agree with the principle of doing nothing about this when there are surely low cost improvements that can be made. Quite apart from pollution the current situation leads to dangerous driving as noted already.

This post was last modified: 20-01-2016 09:40 AM by lacb.

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #80
20-01-2016 10:09 AM

Lacb, Manor Mount is a wide road. Problem is Waldenshaw narrows in the middle making it difficult for cars to pass and St. David's is very narrow.

As I have already said, the Highway Planners decided it was a good idea to make it one way, hopefully they have qualifications in highway planning so offer a better insight into traffic than you and I can offer.

Also, remember, you cannot please all of the people all of the time.

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