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Another accident on Perry Vale
Author Message
appetite4


Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #1
22-09-2015 02:48 PM

Please see below my message to traffic@lewisham.gov.uk this afternoon

I know others have expressed concern about this stretch of road before. If you share my concerns please also contact them

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs,

I have just passed the scene of the second accident in the exact same spot in the last three months.

On both occasions a vehicle has struck the City Walk Apartments building after crossing the footpath. Both vehicles struck the building within six feet of each other by the Perry Vale bistro. The first shattered the equipment room doors. The business has not even had time to replace those properly before this latest incident.

Had today's vehicle struck the building six feet to the left of the first one rather than six feet to the right it would have entered the bistros bar and restaurant area through the glass patio doors and potentially caused serious injury to anyone dining there.

Add to these two incidents the accident that demolished the bus stop barely 50m away (which did cause serious injury to a person waiting at the bus stop) and there is clearly reason to suggest that the road layout and traffic calming measures through this stretch need urgent review. The pavement here is busy with foot traffic to and from the railway station and a fatality may occur if something is not done.

I cannot comment on the detailed causes of the accidents. The police, who are in attendance at the moment, will no doubt give you their expert opinions on each of the incidents. As someone who uses this stretch of pavement daily I can say that poor sight lines around the extended bend and excessive vehicle speed seem likely contributory factors to me.

I also regularly see issues with parking on the double yellow lines causing serious congestion and traffic to be forced onto the wrong side of the road. This is particularly bad when there is an event in the nearby entertainment hall but pedestrians being picked up from, and dropped off at, the railway station causes further congestion and again forces traffic onto the wrong side of the road. Add in large numbers of pedestrians crossing along the whole length of the bend because there is no properly defined crossing point and all in all it's a mess.

Please do contact the police to get their input on the incidents I have mentioned above and have the whole stretch of road reviewed urgently. If possible please institute further measures to prevent a recurrence of accidents like the one this afternoon.

I would very much like to be kept informed of the findings of any review and the plans for action, or reasons for inaction.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #2
22-09-2015 04:10 PM

Great letter!

I drove by while the car was still on the pavement and I was in amazement at how the driver could have put it there and caused so much damage. It absolutely sickens me to think of the carnage that could've been inflicted to pedestrians or, if it had been a nice sunny day, the bistro's al-fresco customers. It's clear that some drivers are simply incapable so, as you say, the council must do something to protect pedestrians from them.

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BamptonRoad


Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 2014
Post: #3
22-09-2015 04:36 PM

Good work writing the letter. Could scarcely believe it when I saw another vehicle had crashed there. What is causing these accidents? Is it just idiotic driving? As the police were in attendance around 14:30 it was well after the heavy rain had finished.

Traffic calming is definitely required.

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Mr Robin Banks


Posts: 80
Joined: Jun 2015
Post: #4
22-09-2015 05:02 PM

Scared



Attached File(s) Thumbnail(s)
   
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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #5
22-09-2015 05:12 PM

That photo says it all - the stupid **** couldn't even see out of his windows!

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Jane2


Posts: 221
Joined: Jan 2007
Post: #6
22-09-2015 06:36 PM

I agree, that stretch of the road is really difficult to cross. A couple of weeks ago I was crossing it with 3 kids, I waited carefully until there were definitely no cars coming from either side of the road or could be seen in the distance, but we were only halfway across the road when a car appeared driving quite fast towards us (driving towards Forest Hill on the railway side). I had to yell at my eldest who was slightly in front to run across, while I scurried back as I knew wouldn't get the buggy across in time, in the meantime another car was coming towards us from the other direction. It was a bit hair-raising.. I honestly don't know how to cross that stretch safely. Not everyone can sprint across! (Nor should they have to). It's a common pedestrian route for people walking to the station.

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appetite4


Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #7
22-09-2015 08:30 PM

I've only seen the aftermath of all three incidents not the actual accidents. To be honest, with the exception of the bus shelter, I couldn't even figure out for sure which direction they had been travelling in at the time of the accident by looking at the final resting place of the vehicles.

Apart from probable excess speed I'm at a loss to know how they have managed it.

Does the raised 'table' catch them unaware and cause a loss of control and/or spin? I'm not sure if there are any paint markings to indicate to drivers that it is raised. I will look tomorrow but I don't remember any.

Are they swerving to avoid an oncoming vehicle that has got the apex of the corner wrong coming in the opposite direction? If so those oncoming vehicles seem to have escaped unscathed on all three occasions.

I don't know how it happens, and I'm certainly not qualified to suggest a solution, but two hits in the exact same spot in such a short time..... Something needs to change. Particularly now the bistro is there. I will definitely be sitting at the back and not in those windows from now on!

Please do let the council know if you are also concerned. Thanks.

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P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #8
22-09-2015 09:06 PM

Agree, great letter.

I think that little bend in the road is a nightmare for both drivers and pedestrians for clear sight of anything on the road or pavement.

BUT throw a mad or fast driver into the mix and it's madness and dangerous.

I saw the aftermath of the accident which hit the bus stop outside All Inn One a few months back and the police were there for hours doing high speed skids to work out what actually happened with tyre prints etc (my son loved watching it so I was there some time) so sure this is all on record.

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shaman


Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #9
23-09-2015 01:14 AM

There was a lot of rain in the morning. I don't know if that's when this occurred.

The road is also difficult for motorists. Travelling south from Waldram Place, all the vehicles want to turn right, but usually have to gamble due to late or absent signals from cars coming round the bend (which usually want to turn left into Waldram Place to access the south circular.

Then they are faced with oncoming traffic due to the parked cars, which push them over. Cars are frequently parked on double yellows at the end, which further reduces visbility. Then there are the speed humps in the middle of the road, which only seem to serve the purpose of positioning cars in the road, bringing them into conflict with vehicles coming the other way.

Proceeding north, as cars proceed around the corner, they are faced with traffic trying to turn right out of Waldram Place, sometimes cutting the corner. Coaches actually take this route too. There is also a lot of setting down or taxis 'just stopping for a bit'.

Bottlenecks, poorly designed speed measures, narrow lanes and reduced visibility (compounded by what I see as a lack of parking enforcement throughout the area) all combine to make it a route filled with distractions and danger.

Not that this is any excuse for poor driving or speeding. It could definitely be improved though.

This post was last modified: 23-09-2015 01:15 AM by shaman.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 508
Joined: May 2012
Post: #10
23-09-2015 10:51 AM

Great letter, terrible accident - and very glad no one appears to have been hurt.

But whatever the traffic congestion, rain or anything else, you really have to have a very special type of doorknob-brain to crash your car like that.

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BamptonRoad


Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 2014
Post: #11
23-09-2015 12:01 PM

The police had closed Perry Vale east of the junction with Dacres Road this morning at 10am. Lots of flashing lights beyond. Any idea what that was?

On yesterday's crash the police were in attendance at 14:30. That was well after the rain had died down.

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Perryman


Posts: 809
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #12
23-09-2015 12:18 PM

it is a great letter, but we all could all come up with a safer arrangement for the traffic here - Lewisham will claim there is no funding for this.

This accident is no fluke - someone obviously worked out that it was likely cars would come off at this point, as they put that 'pedestrian' barrier in front of the building to protect it.

I think cars are misjudging the corner, hitting the outer curb and are bounced back across the road. If so, how about painting the curbs alternately red and white as they do in Monaco?

Nice and cheap solution that even the SE23 motoring lobby might approve of.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 508
Joined: May 2012
Post: #13
23-09-2015 01:20 PM

Quote:
how about painting the curbs alternately red and white as they do in Monaco?

Because they'll start driving like it's the Monaco Grand Prix!

Apologies - flippant comment in response to a sensible suggestion about a serious issue. I'll slap my own wrist.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #14
23-09-2015 02:24 PM

Whatever happened on Perry Vale today must have involved a least serious injury as it was still closed at 12:30pm. Usually the road is only closed that long if the police need to photograph and collect evidence.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #15
23-09-2015 03:36 PM

Quote:
The fire brigade used cutting equipment to free two trapped people after a taxi and coach crashed in Forest Hill


The story is on News Shopper.

Quote:
Two people were trapped after a taxi and a coach crashed in Forest Hill.

The London Fire Brigade (LFB), The Met Police and the London Ambulance Service (LAS), the LAS's Hazardous Areas Response Unit (HART) were all called to Perry Vale just after 9am this morning (September 23).

The LFB used cutting equipment to free two people who were trapped after the crash in Valentine Court.

The LAS treated one man, reported to be in his twenties, for back pain.

He was taken as a priority to King's College Hospital.

One eyewitness, who did not wish to be named, said: "I heard a thud which doesn't mean a lot to me because lorries often career down here and their loads make a lot of noise, but I heard a couple people say 'oh my god oh my god'.

"I went down and saw several motor vehicles, a couple of fire engines, one of two ambulances and three police cars."

The resident, from Perry Vale, added: "I think, from what I gather, because it's a bend here people do often go a little do quickly around here, someone ploughed into a wall, then I think a car went into the back of them.

"I know the car was cut open but I don't know about the other one, I hope they're ok."

Two fire engines and a fire and rescue unit attended the scene.

There were a number of road in place following the smash.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #16
23-09-2015 04:13 PM

I know that bend well. People often take it too fast, and people coming out of Church Rise often ignore the fact they have almost no line of sight around the bend and shoot out. I'll lay a pound to a penny that the coach was one of Clarkes.

This post was last modified: 23-09-2015 04:13 PM by rshdunlop.

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appetite4


Posts: 27
Joined: Feb 2008
Post: #17
23-09-2015 04:32 PM

The council reply follows......I will add comments later but generally I'm less than impressed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your email.

I am sorry to hear of the incident you describe.

The Council recently carried out works to improve road safety at this location. These works included a realignment of the carriageway, the introduction of a speed indicator device (SID) the construction of speed tables, islands and kerb build outs. We also introduced parking restrictions. Sight lines around the bend in the road have been improved, as has pedestrian safety, by this recent widening of the footway and remodelling of the carriageway. Pedestrian improvements have been made along the length of road by the subway and these include a wider pavement, narrower carriageway, better crossing at the car park entrance and a flat topped speed reducing table by the subway where people want to cross. Prior to this work pedestrians crossed here unaided.

Enforcement of the speed limit is a matter for the Police. I would suggest that perhaps residents approach the Police to see if they could carry out some speed or other driving enforcement.

In the meantime officers will look into whether there is a personal injury accident problem at this location. Unfortunately damage only accidents are not used in data for traffic management schemes. This is because there is no reliable means of obtaining the data as often accidents are not reported to Police or insurers and there is therefore no means of assessing possible causes. If the Police confirm that there have been personal injury accidents our engineers will look further at the scheme to determine whether there are any further physical measures that could be considered. If so funding for a scheme would need to be sought from Transport for London, who fund almost almost of the traffic management measure in the borough. A reduction in personal injury accidents is one of the criteria for finding applications.

With regard to the provision of a crossing; I am afraid the Council cannot introduce a pedestrian crossing at that location because the sight lines are not good enough. In other words pedestrians and vehicles approaching the crossing would not be able to see each other from a sufficient distance to allow vehicles to slow down and stop safely. However we recognise that this is the 'desire line' where people want to cross. That's why the engineers put a in flat top table as an informal crossing protected by speed cushions on either side of it to slow traffic down. A stretch of guard railing has been installed to encourage pedestrians to cross at the edge of the table where sightlines are best.

I'm afraid that other than extending the guardrailing to prevent people crossing too close to the bend there is little more we can do to improve the situation. Any design to install a formal crossing at this point would not pass a safety audit, and indeed would be likely to make the crossing less rather than more safe. This is because pedestrians tend to perceive formal crossings as safer and therefore take less care when crossing.

I have asked for parking enforcement in this area to be stepped up.

I hope this information is useful.
regards

Imogen Payami
Casework - Transport

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #18
23-09-2015 04:43 PM

That's the standard reply they have been making since they introduced the 'improvements' that actually made the situation worse rather than better. I would guess this caseworker doesn't know what regular users of the road know, which is that the changes were a big mistake.

So they can't use accident data unless someone is injured? Closing the stable door there...

I will email them too.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #19
23-09-2015 04:54 PM

Looks pretty nasty.

   

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #20
23-09-2015 05:10 PM

Looking at the position of that car and knowing that junction well, I have a good idea about what could have happened. Whatever the cause, I wish all those involved a speedy recovery.

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