I never went to Hills and Parks, but I don't like places with screaming kids or parents either.

I like going to places that have well behaved kids, like mine is (most of the time). Infact, I can't say I have ever been anywhere with 'screaming kids'. I've been places with adults talking loudly or somewhere where the occasional kid has a little tantrum, but I'd rather that than loud music.

…pass the popcorn…

If only we lived in a big metropolitan area where you could visit a wider catchment area to find such a place. Sadly we live in the small village of London where no such place exists

This post was last modified: 02-10-2015 08:28 PM by OakR.

Well said Londondrz.

Oh yippee another mother-and-toddler bashing thread on SE23.com. Hasn't this subject been done to death? Maybe this forum should become non-family too, because there's a definite recurrent theme.

I go out in coffee shops quite a lot in Forest Hill and Honor Oak and the children don't bother me, i don't notice them to be honest. I've not experienced all these horrors everyone's going on about.

Jane 2, please re read this thread! It is not a mother and toddler bashing thread. It is a thread where I, and a number of others, have said we would like mothers AND FATHERS and their kids in coffee shops. What I personally dont like is parents who do not control their kids.

Please dont feel indignant for something or someone else when we are trying to ask for a reasoned discourse. One of the posters said they would like a kids free coffee shop. I disagreed, I think well behave kids should be allowed into whatever shop, coffee shop, restaurant as long as they are well behaved.

I have two young children, I love going to coffee shops with them, I love coffee, they love the cakes. They behave. What is wrong with that?

One correction - I should have said parent-and-toddler bashing. Late night quick posting.

However I stand by the rest of my post, SE23.com has form for this kind of thread (e.g. 'children in cafes' and 'children in pubs' amongst others) and generally it doesn't end in reasoned discourse, but in cliches and 'in my day kids were seen but not heard' type posts. It's one of the things that puts me off posting on here about any family or child related issues, I find if you stick to posts about the local area you are fairly safe, but for family stuff I use other local forums.

I have kids myself, but they are at school so I am usually in cafes on my own in the daytime. I am not trying to be indignant for others, or make excuses, I mainly wanted to make the point that I honestly haven't witnessed all the awful behaviour people are talking about (and I go to cafes more often than I should probably admit...)

Hi Jane2 and thank you for the response. I guess kids in cafe's is a subjective thing. Some people like it, some people dont and some people dont give it a second thought.

I guess my beef is with those parents who just dont seem to care what their children do in public. Yes children are children and get up to all sorts of things but what parent doesn't clean up after their kids who start to throw food around. What parent doesn't try to stop their kids throwing things around?

I remember when my two were much younger and they enjoyed throwing food, bottles, toys, bibs etc on the floor whilst looking at you. As part of a kids upbringing it is part of their "test the boundaries" stage of development. If your kid/s did that in a cafe, surely you would clear it up as a responsible person. But there are a good few parents who dont. There are a good few parents who will park the mega sized buggy by the front door and go in for a coffee leaving an obstacle course for those who now want to enter or leave. Why do that, can they not see the buggy is in the way or do they just not care? The parents who congregate with their buggies in the entrance to shops and supermarkets and then look really annoyed when you ask them to move so you can get in or out.

Why do some parents happily let their kids run around the cafe whilst they check out their phones/lap tops? I am all for a little kid saying hello whilst having a coffee but dont enjoy being shouted at by the same kid who is intent on putting their cake/chocolate/jammy etc hands all over me. However it's a kid, they do that. What gets my goat is that the parents sit there, see their little angel doing it and just carry on without a care in the world.

All I ask is for people to think about others.

P. S My think about other people views also extend to those people who sit on an aisle seat on the train during the rush hour and then look really annoyed that you have asked to sit down and then huff and puff as they move their bag off the seat next to them. Grrrr

have you visited Montage or Canvas & Cream? Montage has a separate room for children and Canvas & Cream doesn't usually attract many children.
The good thing about coffee shops in Forest Hill is there are so many, each catering for a slightly different market. if one seems full of children you can join them or move on to the next cafe.

on the original thread, I hope Hills and Parks does reopen as it is exactly what is needed in Honor Oak.

Went to Aga's little Deli with my two at lunch time. Lovely iced coffee and pulled pork bun. Not a screaming adult in sight

Regardless of how many children or adults were screaming in there, H&P was way too overpriced for what they were trying to shift. Considering you could pop into Sainsburys next door and get much of same produce for less than a quid they never really stood a chance.

Jane, it's very clearly not a "parent and toddler" bashing thread. It's, amongst other things, a complaint about a certain type of parent of young children.

Yes, there are people who can't stand kids and will hate whatever they do, but the comments here (even the more vociferious complaints) are about a specific type of behaviour. You complained about lack of reasoned discourse and cliches on this topic, and yet you are happily painting all the parent-related complaints here with broad sweeping generalisations and cliches yourself.

Pot?

I agree more pot would lead to calmer cafes.

On another note, have been impressed with how many of the smaller shops are open on Sundays. Was in Forest hill on a Sunday recently and there were quite a lot of people around - from the swimming pool, having Sunday lunches etc. Lots of the smaller shops were open (Aga's, sugar mountain, stag & bow, butchers, aldlife charity shop). It was the bigger shops that were shut (Boots, WHSmith, M&Co, all the other charity shops etc) and I think they must miss out on a bit of business. I actually needed to buy a few things and couldn't so I got it from Sainsburys in the end. (Annoyingly though B cards was also shut, and Aga's had run out of bread). Anyway just wanted to say that lots of the smaller shops are obviously trying hard with the Sunday opening hours.

It's official - from the H&P Facebook page:

I'm sorry to hear that.

And re: expense of goods stocked - the rent for the high street shops is eye-wateringly high. Makes it hard for people selling goods to make any profit. Unless you're Sainsburys which obviously benefits economies of scale.

Hope H&P can find a buyer soon.

It's always very sad to see a local independent trader have to close.

This is very close to my heart as I both live and trade in the FH, so my opinions and info here are based on both.

I think the message Hills & Parkes were trying to get across via their FB page is that if you want a local shop to thrive and stay you need to support it and shop there.

The other info I have been told about, this is that the premium for taking on the bussiness as is was originally was £90,000 you would probably have to show yearly takings of at least £500,000 to merit this which I don't think any SE23 shop does. That said as far as I know both parties lawyers were meeting today to finalise contracts etc.

I am not voicing any opinions on this as I really feel sad that a local shop has closed, I'm just sharing the info I've been told about.

In reply to Hopper I can only speak for myself but just wanted to add that there is one landlord I know of in FH that cares about the area and all in it and that's "AnotherJohn" on here, he's my shop landlord and does so much for our community and he certainly doesn't charge over the odds on shop rents, very sad to hear others might do.

Oh and Mr Man "AnotherJohn" sorry to mention you but it had to be said on this post x

It's really sad news when a local business closes. I remember when they did a pop up market stall outside the station. Have they sold then? Or will it remain empty?

i am sorry that Hills and Parkes has closed. It is my belief that with the Overground and the spill of professional couples and families to the area there is money to be made in HOP for a deli .

my observation of H and P was that there was very little in there. Quite often when I went in I would struggle to find something to buy. I would wander out with nice bacon, but that was about it. Believe me I wanted to give money to local shops but found myself drawn to the delis of East Dulwich, places like Gails in Dulwich village and even Waitrose in Beckenham and the various Carluccios.

I never understood why Hills and Parkes didnt make more use of their kitchens to offer healthy take outs to Commuters. Beef bourginons, veggie dishes etc. They could have leafleted the morning rush commuters to pick up in the evening. All of that prepared food is high margin. Also where was the home made food - extensive cheeses and charcuterie, homemadesoups guacomole and salsa etc stuff you couldnt find at The nearby Sainsburys?

I completely agree with you Redalways - had a very similar experience, though funnily enough, I found they were more food-ready orientated rather than ingredient based for my taste - more like a traiteur than a deli IMO. However, I think that H&P did a decent business as they were and lots of people appreciated that. They have been a key driver in the renaissance of the parade and they had a strong community focus and will be missed for that too. I think that a deli is a very hard business to deliver well and I applaud them for the effort.

My understanding is that the intention to sell was more to do with change of personal circumstances though they did think that Sainsburys hurt their trade too. I do not know whether a sale has actually occurred - they may have just closed.

I'm sorry to see H&P closed.

Yes, it was expensive, but it is a luxury - meant for lazy Saturday mornings.

Yes, the mummy mafia acted like they owned the place, but that is hardly H&P specific (ref: East Dulwich). And, perhaps one of them does now own the place?

Yes, the coffee wasn't great. The machine was low-end and in any case the staff were not trained on how to use it - as was evident to see and taste. Still, it wasn't terrible.

Yes, it never seemed to have enough stock (and what they did have was hidden away). I know that we are used to supermarkets being overstocked and all the waste that entails, but if it re-opens, perhaps the new owners can make a better note of what has sold out and also take requests for the next delivery.

There's scope for so much more from that unit (fresh food boxes a la Riverford; freshly prepared meals; late opening wine bar etc. etc.). I hope the new owners breath some life back into it.