SE23.com - The Official Forum for Forest Hill & Honor Oak, London SE23
Online since 2002  -  10,000+ members

Home | SE23 Topics | Shops & Services | Wider Topics | Offered/Wanted/Lost/Found | Advertising | Contact
Geddes Hairdressing & Barbering Studio One Armstrong & Co Solicitors


Post Reply  Post Topic 
Pages (9): « First < Previous 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 Next > Last »
Life in SE23 - Shops
Author Message
Herbert


Posts: 63
Joined: Apr 2010
Post: #41
22-07-2015 08:03 AM

Is this Forest Hill's version of the Glasgow Ice Cream Wars of the 1980's Smile

Find all posts by this user Reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #42
22-07-2015 08:33 AM

Well, that escalated quickly!

TomH - where has the Italian Deli posted for itself? Are you suggesting that hellohello is actually the Italian Deli? Seems unlikely for a forum member who has been here for 5 years and has posted 40 times. But maybe you know something I don't.

Pauline - so sorry to hear your shop was attacked. You were quite right to report a trading standards infraction to the proper authorities. Not sure it was entirely necessary to report it here too, though. It's easy to make assumptions about anonymous postings online. Sometimes those assumptions are right, sometimes they are wrong.

If the Italian Deli has to change their lovely handwritten shop sign to remove the word 'handmade' that will be a blow to their reputation, especially for a new business. If they want to compete with our excellent existing businesses, they need to be above board and really offer something different. Competition is good for local trade if it raises standards and offers real choice.

Find all posts by this user Reply
Sherwood


Posts: 1,351
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #43
22-07-2015 08:37 AM

Competition is very good in theory. It tends to keep prices down. However, there is only so much business. Is there enough demand in Forest Hill for ice-cream to support an additional outlet?

Find all posts by this user Reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #44
22-07-2015 09:11 AM

That's for the market to decide, I suppose. If there isn't the market, one or the other will not survive. Which is why it's doubly important that any competition be fair and above board. If (and I say IF) a new business undercuts an existing one by selling an inferior product but claiming it is of the same quality, then that is clearly wrong and I'm glad the proper authorities are dealing with it.

Find all posts by this user Reply
Red67


Posts: 141
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #45
22-07-2015 10:03 AM

Weren't they going to open a pizza restaurant rather than a deli? I wonder why they changed their minds....? Maybe it was easier to aggressively try to undercut (with distinctly inferior quality products) two businesses nearby that they saw had established a good reputation and customer base. Yes, it's down to market forces, etc etc, and yes, i realise that we live in a capitalist society, but i personally find their opening in the manner that they have extremely rude and disrespectful to their fellow traders and 'ice cream-gate' shows it.
I never have and never will use them.
Just a thought, but aren't the kids off school now? Traditional 'egging' time isn't it??

Find all posts by this user Reply
BamptonRoad


Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 2014
Post: #46
22-07-2015 12:32 PM

Strange old thread this. I use the Italian Deli because it sells Italian food that I rather like. From pasta to wine to Nduja sausage. A lot of what they sell is not available elsewhere in Forest Hill or nearby. One day I might try the making pizza from scratch using the 00 flour that they sell.

Clearly there is some overlap with other shops, particularly with the ice cream, but is is a unique and different offering for Forest Hill. I am much more likely to buy other cheese or British hams from neighbouring shops if I visit the Italian Deli. Otherwise I would probably just go to Sainsburys.

The shopkeeper is a lovely bloke, I can't believe he would do something so petty as to throw eggs at a window. One of the reasons I go there is because of him. That and the fact that they are open much longer hours so I can go after work or on a Sunday.

Find all posts by this user Reply
kelly


Posts: 20
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #47
22-07-2015 12:43 PM

Good morning people of forest hill ,I have read with concern the comments made re the Italian deli most of which are not true,as a fellow trader in Dartmouth rd of 12 years I have seen many businesses come and go but one thing that has always been a priority is to support those business personally and through the traders association,in my own business I have had many competitors open over the last 12 years who have always had my full support
As regard to ilmerto they wanted to open a 2nd pizza restaurant as many of their customers in East dulwich were coming from forest hill,unfortunately the council would not grant them a A3 licence so having signed a lease and paid rent in advance they had to quickly look at how best to use the shop space,being Italian their natural leaning was to gelato and Italian meats and cheeses
As far as under cutting the compitition they did what I do and every business person does look at where to position your business in the local market place
The thing that has angered me more than anything else is the comment that the gelato is powder mixed with water,this is so wrong and very unfair,I watch these guys making fresh gelato every day and not a drop of water is used further more the only ingredients that are used are fresh milk,fresh cream,stabiliser,a liquid base and the fresh fruit or flavour of the gelato,it is made freshly in the shop every day and listening to the comments of the people who use it they really enjoy the traditional Italian way of making gelato ,the guys investment in the machinery for gelato is over £24,000 a bit more than just buying a fridge
I have always wanted Dartmouth rd to be the hub of forest hill,and we are at last moving in the right direction ,but we need to help and support each other

Find all posts by this user Reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #48
22-07-2015 01:10 PM

Thanks for posting that, kelly. So now we have to ask what that letter Pauline received from the FSA means. Have they or haven't they broken any rules?

Having a range of shops that do deli-style food with different focuses will only increase footfall and trade for all. And more than one ice-cream parlour isn't a bad idea either. These shops aren't that big, seating is limited. If, for example, I was a parent thinking of taking my kids out for a sit-down ice-cream, I'd be more likely to do it knowing that there are two places I could go, so if one was full, we could go to the other.

Find all posts by this user Reply
John Daker


Posts: 47
Joined: Apr 2015
Post: #49
22-07-2015 01:19 PM

What FH has always lacked (well going back to the early 80's anyway which is when I first encountered the area) is the critical mass of quality shops needed to make it a destination worth the visit so the more the merrier as far as I can see.

Find all posts by this user Reply
hoona


Posts: 201
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #50
22-07-2015 02:01 PM

Sorry Pauline but your post smacks of sour grapes to me...
There are no rules to say that you're the only shop on Dartmouth Road allowed to sell ice cream, handmade or not.
You didn't do yourself any favours last time you had a rant on this forum. I think you'd do well to remember that. And no, I'm not the egg thrower, but Mr Il Mirto probably isn't either...

Find all posts by this user Reply
P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #51
22-07-2015 02:15 PM

Kelly/Bryan - You are the only trader I have spoken to that disagrees with me reporting this to FSA.

The proof is in the writing so they say!

If anyone wants to see the original email reply I copy and pasted previously just come and ask, I also cc'd 2 local CLLR's and 2 members of Forest Hill Society in the email I sent.

Find all posts by this user Reply
nevermodern


Posts: 653
Joined: Feb 2007
Post: #52
22-07-2015 03:19 PM

Just a guess, but this could be related to whether there are fresh eggs used or a pasteurised egg powder: this may be the legal difference between being allowed to label the ice cream as 'freshly made' or not.

It's sometimes a thin line - like when supermarkets often advertise bread 'freshly made' on the premises when they bring the dough - made elsewhere - and heat it in on-premise ovens.

Regardless, Il Mirto is a lovely little shop with a lovely, friendly fella behind the counter, and the ice cream, especially the pistachio, is delicious.

I also had a cold, shaken espresso with my last tub, which was nicely made with a flourish and plenty of 'alloras' Smile

Find all posts by this user Reply
P1971


Posts: 816
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #53
22-07-2015 08:52 PM

The tins of powdered ice cream flavours were on the shelves behind the ice cream freezer display last time I looked. After posting on this and being egged two days on the trot (yes it happened again and I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, but it does seem like a very weird coincidence as it's never happened before) I keep my head down as I'm passing on my way to work so have not looked over the last couple of days.

If they are trying to rectify this (I heard a conversation as I was walking past this morning with someone telling them they had to do something about it - re this thread) then fair play, but if not then I stick by my words and will contact FSA on Monday for updates.

Some have asked me to think before I post on this thread which I think I have done. if I posted this reply this morning I would have been very emotional as I was angry then upset with what I saw when I went to open up today.

I knew my post would upset some people, but I also believe that honesty is the best policy and customers deserve to be told the truth to decide where they want to shop.

Please note: I don't own my shop, I rent it. If anyone has a grudge with me please take it out on me not the shop as my amazing landlord owns that and is a massive contributer to Forest Hill as a whole.

Thanks and sorry to always say it how it is.

Find all posts by this user Reply
appletree


Posts: 30
Joined: Apr 2015
Post: #54
23-07-2015 01:38 AM

I am quite depressed by this thread and if anything it makes me less likely to use Pauline's shop.

Il Mirto seems like a lovely addition to Dartmouth Road and I hope they are also able to open a pizza place there. I spoke to the manager when they opened, who said they were looking for a site. I hope they won't be deterred by unpleasantness from their neighbours.

Find all posts by this user Reply
topofthehill


Posts: 25
Joined: Jan 2012
Post: #55
23-07-2015 11:21 AM

Interesting information regarding hand made gelato on http://www.italiangelato.info :

"Making a good hand-made gelato begins with the recipe (or formula) after which the quality raw materials and compound ingredients can be measured out."

"As a general rule, compound ingredients can be found in all gelato parlours in the form of bases, supplements and pastes".

Several articles on the portal, all worth reading.

Find all posts by this user Reply
BamptonRoad


Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 2014
Post: #56
23-07-2015 12:18 PM

I have only had one ice cream from Il Mirto (I try to eat healthily) and it was delicious. Black Cherry with good sized lumps of cherry. They do have big tins of some kind of ice cream mix or powder on display prominently. I just presumed that this was part of the production process and fairly standard. The only people who are going to buy tins of approx 2-3 litres of ice cream powder are going to be small scale producers. Clearly the ice cream is made on the premises. To my mind that counts as home or hand made. There may be some technical definition but I would be surprised if this fall outside of it.

More money is being spent on Dartmouth Road than there was previously. If there was a greengrocer there, just a small one similar to Fresh and Fruity in Sydenham, then I would visit Sainsburys much less frequently. Ideally there would also be a bakery and the butchers would move to Dartmouth Rd.

Find all posts by this user Reply
kelly


Posts: 20
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #57
23-07-2015 12:32 PM

Thank you topofthehill for your info,the more I look into the making of gelato the more complex and interesting I find it,I was just chatting with enrico One of the owners at the shop who is very knowledgeable about gelato and he has explained how each flavour requires different methods,who knew it was so technical,it's certainly not powder and water,he is following an Italian ladies methods and recipes called donata panciera who published a book called il gelato artigianale Italiano ,it's worth popping into the shop not only to taste the ice cream but actually see them make it on the premises

Find all posts by this user Reply
topofthehill


Posts: 25
Joined: Jan 2012
Post: #58
23-07-2015 01:10 PM

It may be worth their while to have monthly gelato making demonstrations and tastings.

Kelly, do you know what Il Mirto is doing as regards the trading standards issue - are they contesting the directive given them?

Find all posts by this user Reply
FoHoNewbie


Posts: 3
Joined: Jul 2015
Post: #59
23-07-2015 01:29 PM

As a relative new-comer to Forest Hill and an SE23 forum virgin, I felt compelled to make my first post on this thread (and no I am not the owner of Il Mirto in disguise before anyone asks!). I am really pleased to see another interesting independent trader arrive on Dartmouth Road and hope the shop thrives. Anything that brings additional foot fall to Dartmouth road should benefit all traders and the area as a whole.

It's a real shame the owners weren't able to open this as a pizza restaurant but an Italian deli and gelateria is far better than another shop left empty. I can't wait to pop in now - all this talk of gelato is making me hungry!

Find all posts by this user Reply
rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #60
23-07-2015 01:55 PM

Oh dear. Pauline - is there any chance you've made an honest mistake and the powder tins you saw are an accepted part of making gelato?

We are trying the Perryvale for Sunday lunch this week - I'm thinking we may need to have a gelato afterwards. The last few posts have my mouth watering!

Find all posts by this user Reply
Pages (9): « First < Previous 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 Next > Last »

Friends of Blythe Hill Fields


Possibly Related Topics ...
Topic: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Life in SE23 - Our community Forest Hill library partnership bid P1971 12 4,025 22-05-2016 11:50 PM
Last Post: P1971
  Life in SE23 - Slow Worms in Forest Hill Devonish Forester 9 2,814 15-05-2016 10:04 PM
Last Post: bkkmei
  Life in SE23 - Dacres Wood Open Day – help us get to know our trees! dacreswood 0 1,186 28-04-2016 10:47 AM
Last Post: dacreswood
  Many local independant shops in SE23 wil be open on Mon 30th and Tues 31st New Year's P1971 0 1,475 28-12-2013 11:53 PM
Last Post: P1971