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Highway improvements to Dartmouth Road
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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #1
17-04-2015 07:40 AM

I'm surprised the plans for this, and in particular the meeting about it last night, don't seem to have been mentioned on this forum, at any rate recently.

See https://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic....66#p110866

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SEN


Posts: 51
Joined: Oct 2010
Post: #2
18-04-2015 12:18 PM

Would be great if Dartmouth Road was improved - was pleasantly surprised about how good Sydenham looks.

I've felt for years (knowing it will never happen) that pedestrianising Dartmouth Road would give FH a real centre...the improvements in the link would be welcome though

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #3
18-04-2015 12:33 PM

Quote:
[...] pedestrianising Dartmouth Road would give FH a real centre[...]

Where would the traffic that uses it now be diverted to? Sydenham Rise? Silverdale/Perry Vale? Mayow Road/Perry Vale?

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 458
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #4
18-04-2015 10:19 PM

Don't believe pedestranisation (sorry my spelling is awful!) would work, and would only create problems on other roads.
HOWEVER I DO believe that we badly need to clean up the area around the Sylvan post where the betting shop is.
The bricked path is really uneven and a real trip hazard and the benches round the tree outside the bookmakers attract some pretty unpleasant characters, I never feel comfitable walking past there.
And the green area and benches outside the pools just don't feel very pleasant either its doesn't feel like a place where one would want to sit and relax.

This post was last modified: 18-04-2015 10:20 PM by nottinghillbilly.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #5
19-04-2015 02:36 PM

It was acknowledged at the meeting that both these areas were problematic in different ways, and, I think, that the improvement plan aimed to deal with both of them.

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CrustyRack


Posts: 53
Joined: Mar 2014
Post: #6
27-04-2015 03:35 PM

The answer to the bottlenecks is to put double red lines on Dartmouth Road and enforce automatic fines for those who break the law. Don't even need to send round a parking warden, it can be controlled by traffic cameras. There is a car park at Forest Hill Station, and parking bays outside the sweetshop and kebab shop near the flats.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #7
27-04-2015 03:56 PM

I suspect a significant proportion of the inconveniently parked vehicles at the north end of Dartmouth Road are delivering to or from the shops there. If parking were absolutely banned there, their businesses might presumably be quite seriously affected.

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CrustyRack


Posts: 53
Joined: Mar 2014
Post: #8
27-04-2015 04:13 PM

The bottlenecks are largely at night, with people parking and then using the various pubs and restaurants. A few weeks ago, a couple of parking wardens were issuing tickets to cars, at around 9pm customers were emerging from the businesses and moving their cars. Laurels florist and the café manage to handle deliveries without causing a jam. for the 8-10 shops even if they had a daily delivery, this would hardly impact. Its just people who are too lazy to park in the station car park and walk 150 yards.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #9
27-04-2015 04:36 PM

I beg to differ. A certain trader frequently has their van parked half-on, half-off the pavement and causing an obstruction. As someone who uses the road frequently, I know that as many problems are caused by poor parking during the day as at night.

This post was last modified: 27-04-2015 04:36 PM by rshdunlop.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #10
27-04-2015 04:54 PM

My wife and I frequently use the road, during the day, during the evening and at weekends. While it is true that the pub/restaurant customers who park in the evening can cause obstructions, particularly when buses (in either or, even worse, both directions) are trying to get past, in our experience the worst congestion occurs during the day, particularly during the morning rush hour/school run.

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appletree


Posts: 30
Joined: Apr 2015
Post: #11
29-04-2015 09:57 AM

There are terrible back-ups at the London Road end of Dartmouth Road for much of the morning -- it makes it almost pointless to take the bus as buses are forced to wait for ten minutes or more to turn onto London Road. As buses cannot let you out after the Thorpewood Avenue stop, it can be very frustrating.

I can't understand why there is any parking on Dartmouth Road. It makes what is already a narrow road into essentially a one-lane road, so that two buses going in opposite directions can't pass each other.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,348
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
29-04-2015 10:18 AM

They could move the pavement back where the Post Office used to be to allow a few short term parking spaces.

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Mr_Numbers


Posts: 508
Joined: May 2012
Post: #13
29-04-2015 10:22 AM

I found this link on the Forest Hill Society Facebook page.

http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2015/04...ation.html

At a glance the plans seem fine - I'll leave it to others more expert than me to comment on them.

And I know you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs, but the roadworks on Sydenham High Street were absolute torture for many, many months. (Was it a year and a half or did I imagine that?)

So is there anything that can be done in the planning to try to ensure that the disruption is as brief as possible? Throw more money at it so it can be done more quickly? I know, I know... but there's wider costs, too, in terms of lost business for retailers, greater congestion = more pollution etc.

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #14
29-04-2015 01:17 PM

Spot on Sherwood!

I have been looking at this and my solution (breaking a few eggs!) would be to insert camera-enforced double red lines (as it is affects the movement of buses and traffic on Tfl's junction on the Sth Circ) and very strong bollards all the way through the bottle-neck right out to the kerb line to protect pedestrians. This would unfortunately prevent loading and unloading for the traders along that part of the road so, to compensate for this, there would have to be a re-jigging of the wider pedestrian areas extending from the bottom of Derby Hill to the betting office to provide some strictly enforced loading bays.


As for the proposed bus stops on Dartmouth Road, I believe the benefit would not outweigh the loss of parking bays.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #15
29-04-2015 01:35 PM

The current length of red-route marking is ridiculously short, ending well before the road narrows at Bunka. It then goes to a single yellow, which is what causes problems in the evenings and weekends. The red route section needs to be MUCH longer.

The problems during the day are mainly caused by illegal parking, some of it partly on the pavements. I also wonder if the single yellows allow loading and unloading? If so, some of the obstructive parking is currently legal. I think bollards would be an excellent idea, along with the extension of the red route, to combat this. The idea of creating parking at the old post office is a good one, as long as the Sylvan Post won't lose too much of its outdoor seating.

The works in Sydenham were very disruptive, but people soon adapted and they could have been a lot worse. I think these works are going to be on a smaller scale so hopefully the disruption will be less.

Will this thread form part of the public consultation?

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Anotherjohn


Posts: 347
Joined: May 2005
Post: #16
29-04-2015 02:07 PM

rshdunlop - I'm not sure how this thread will be regarded in the public consultation process but it's likely that some workable ideas will come out of it and Michael will probably help to put these forward on our behalf.

Normal yellow lines do allow for something like 5 minutes for loading and they also allow for disabled parking for up to 3 hours which, regrettably, could lead to too much travel disruption to too many people for it to be a sensible concession in that location.

Instead of the single yellow line I believe Lewisham could put double yellow lines with the addition of a no loading restriction and that would also prevent disabled parking.

I'm afraid my idea for loading bays would cramp things a bit outside the Sylvan Post but solving this terrible problem is inevitably going to be a tricky balancing act. I hope that the highways people are sensitive and creative enough to be able to make the right compromises.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #17
29-04-2015 03:01 PM

Just a side note, I believe Red Route is restricted to roads maintained by TfL, like on Perry Vale where it just ends etc.

I agree though that there has to be a reasonable compromise to discourage the parking where possible, to enable traffic flow. Its been too bad for too long now.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,348
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #18
29-04-2015 03:56 PM

Snazy,

I think you are right. Red lines probably cannot be extended. However, the appropriate authority may be able to use double yellow lines and even kerb yellow lines to restrict loading and unloading.

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Snazy


Posts: 1,495
Joined: Jan 2008
Post: #19
29-04-2015 04:01 PM

Indeed, it needs something for sure. Im not usually a fan of camera enforcement, but in cases like this where it has a literally crippling effect, then I would support even the threat of it.

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brencud


Posts: 31
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #20
01-05-2015 10:09 PM

Eric Pickles, with his usual approach of basing policy on anecdote rather than evidence, has made it more difficult (even impossible?) for councils to deploy cameras for parking control. So even on Dartmouth Road, which I think everyone agrees has real problems, I don't think this is likely. I don't see why the Council can't get parking wardens over here more often though, it would surely pay for itself in terms of the numbers of fines levied.

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