A multi-use venue, incorporating, say, practice rooms to hire. The fella teaching drums in the old Aceri building might want to relocate there, or bands recording in the studio down dartmouth place. Are there any community organisations who are looking for new and better premises? Or book clubs, knitting groups. The more stake-holders who profess a need for space, the better the chance of persuading the council it's needed.

I think you really need an end user to kickstart this, an organisation with some idea of capital and revenue funding. Its also quiet probably because its August!

It would be fantastic to have a venue in the centre of FH that could be hired by people who run paid-for preschool activities ('Monkey Music', 'Caterpillar Music', 'Diddi Dance', 'Sing & Sign' etc. etc. ). That would keep all the young mums spending their money in FH instead of disappearing to Dulwich. There are so many young families in FH I'm sure the place would be buzzing. Of course, free/cheap toddler groups would be great too!

Indeed but with all the recently created childrens centres around situated in the grounds of local primary schools, ie Kilmorie, Kelvingrove, Eliot Bank, etc, mums, young and not so young, in Forest Hill are already spoilt for choice. And thats not counting places such as the Honor Oak Tavern and the Horniman, Normanton Street church, FH Library the Ackroyd and a whole lot more that host a lot of baby and toddler groups and events. Personally I find it hard to keep up with all the events in FH as it is. I dont; think Forest Hill mums totally rely on Dulwich any more other than to have a change of scene or visit the park. Its a good idea though, its just that there are a lot of venues already providing great services locally that I'm not sure a specific dedicated venue would make enough to justify its existence.

Has anyone any idea of the capital budget required to bring Louise House up to scratch , DDA compliance, and also the revenue requirements ie rent to the Council and repairs sinking fund etc? Have the Council given an indication of this to anyone? Its pretty critical information in assessing what income needs to be generated in order to stay in the red. It would also be helpful to look at successful case studies from elsewhere to gauge what would work where. I am sure that given the under provision of nurseries in the area there would be someone interested in looking at it however they need to know its on the market so to speak. Bojangles refurbished an old house in FH last year for this purpose and Pitta Patta is also based in a Victorian building so there are precedents. The best way to start therefore is I see it for a marketing brief to be prepared ie area, condition, rents, outgoings, with some indication from a surveyor on potential including capital costs. The next step is to effectively put in on the market for rent. I am not sure how a restriction on community use can be placed on the building or how wide or narrow this definition could be. Presumably it already carries a D1 classification?

Of course, I mean whats needed to stay in the black, not the red. But then it was written late in the evening....

To Whom It May Concern:

We've not heard anything about it for a while.... is there news? Of any kind?

Or are we to assume that Friends of Louise House have given up on hopes for a community use that honours the true heritage of the glebe land endowment, perhaps being satisfied with the place in private hands, so long as they get to see the bricks from the street as they walk past it?

Anyway, thought these might be useful.

j4bCommunity: A grants/loans funding search site:
http://www.j4bcommunity.co.uk/Search.asp...=cmdSubmit

Capital Community Foundation: Gives details of 3rd sector funding available in London. Doesn't have much at the moment, but may be worth checking every now and then for any new funding sources added
http://www.capitalcf.org.uk

I had heard that an annual gross revenue of ?250k was required for this property in order to generate the desired level of capital funding required to restore the fabric of the building and to bring it into use. I would imagine that this would be very hard to do even with executive housing.

I am still of the mind that the best way forward is to apply to have this property de listed, and allow redevelopment of some sort, however would not want to slow down more than necessary the current proposals for the Pool, as this would only lead to more disaster. However there may be some potential for it to be incorporated at a later date into the new development. I feel strongly that we need to commemorate the work of our Polish friend in some other way. Having learned a great deal more about him I cannot imagine how he would be pleased at the outcome of all this. He valued childrens lives and education and sacrificed his life in order to protect his charges when he could have made his escape. I can't see someone like him preferring an ugly old building to a proposal which would enable our children to become and stay healthy and to make the most of their childhood.

If any of the previous supporters of this idea feel a second wind coming on, please PM me and we'll set something up for further discussion.

Roz, definitely best to keep this separate from the pools if we don't want to delay that (again).

Contrary Mary: Friends of Louise House is still working on a couple of proposals, as you and Roz rightly identify there are two problems (although not insurmountable) one is revenue funding and one is capital

I am still most interested in something that harnesses the creative ideas and energy of the area with some kind of arts focus but we will have to see what is workable......

Not sure when they will be going more public on the ideas but the Council has asked for serious expressions of interest early in November.

From last nights meeting I understand that the Council have extended their grace period to next April for the community to come up with a viable scheme. Its very nice of them and no doubt election timescales have influenced this decision however another winter lying empty will not do the property any favours so on the other hand its a shame, however no doubt the proposal to convert into housing is not going to be financially viable either at the moment.
From the presentation at the AGM it would appear that things have not been progressed very much in respect of the funding/financing issue. One can only go to so many Pilates/Yoga classes in a lifetime and there seems to be no shortage of these- the Honor Oak Tavern is even running classes at various times of the day so I am not sure how much revenue these would bring in to Louise House either with or without an arts centre appended.

I reported before that I was told from official quarters that a revenue of ?250k pa was required in order to generate the various heritage grants needed to bring the property back into use. As this was strangely challenged last night by the person who gave me the original information I am re checking the facts with other sources. To me any future vision for this property needs to be finance led or at least steered from the bottom line as otherwise great plans will just bite the dust.

It still remains my view that a community application to have this building delisted, and its historical significance maintained in other ways that reflect more appropriately the ideals of Janusz Korczak , are still the way forward if we are to have something sustainable on that site in the longer term. Thanks to those of who ( all 6 of you!) who have contacted me privately to express interest. Its not an impossible task but not an easy one either, but we can only look into it and see what happens.

I spoke briefly at the Forest Hill Society AGM last night to increase public information about where we are in terms of future plans for Louise House. An informal group called Friends of Louise House has been formed in early August. The aim of this grouping is to act as a channel of communication between the Council and interested local people about the uses which the Council might support. A group of us have been working all summer and to date to explore possible options for the future of the buildings. Possible plans have included reuse as a nursery, a library extension, a museum, an arts centre (for visual or musical or theatrical arts or a combination of the three), a health centre, serviced offices, a hotel, and a number of other possibilities.

Since early August we have had informative discussions with Council officers, councillors and other organisations. We have also had wider discussions with people from outside the area, such as national museums. In the current economic climate and atmosphere of contraction in the arts and museums sector not all avenues are likely to be fruitful. We are working actively on at least two possible proposals and will go public with them when they have got beyond the exploratory stage.

It is worth pointing out that the decision about the future of the building is in the hands of the Council. The Friends of Louise House are not gate keepers and anyone can contact the Council direct about any proposal they may have.

I think Roz is wasting people's time seeking to appeal the listing. My understanding is that the building owner (i.e. Lewisham Council) needed to do this within 28 days of the listing. The grounds for appeal are quite limited and difficult, mainly concerning issues of fact which are not contestable. In any case, Lewisham Council decided not to explore this avenue at the time and it is hard to see how it can be reopened now.

If any wishes to contact me about any aspect of Louise House, please email me at friendsoflouisehouse@googlemail.com

No one mentioned appealing the listing. You can, according to DCSM advice apply to de- list a building and the stronger the community voice and rationale, the better.

How would de-listing help?

A significant proportion of the population would want to retain the building. We know that.

So we have a building either listed or de listed that needs a use, it needs an upgrade and it needs maintennance.

Whatever it's listing status it's still the same building?

De-listing would open up other options such as demolition and new build. Painful I know but if this is going to sit around for some time it would surely make sense to widen the range of options.
It would also make refurbishment a lot cheaper surely as fewer restrictions on works. It is not the easiest building to renovate, particularly for public use with all the concomitant requirements for DDA compliance and for the versatility so often now needed for public buildings and indeed general use such as offices. I applaud the view that it could be a hotel but still feel that this will not stack up.

I would bet that if in 5 years time we are still sitting here wondering how to make it viable then views may change. Hopefully we do not have to wait that long.

Surely, precisely the reason for a listing in the first place?

Where on earth does it say that?

According to the English Heritage website (you may have more privileged sources):

Given that the owner (Lewisham Council) is not intending to appeal, and that you have not offered yet offered evidence that "the original evidence...was wrong" your case seems rather weak.

Steve,
Anybody can apply to de-list a building it is the same form as the application form for listed status. If Roz wishes to submit an application for de-listing she does not need anybody else in the community or on the council to back this.

We have seen three failed attempts to list the pool building, and one failed appeals against the listing of a school in Lewisham. I think the lesson should be that English Heritage do not easily change their minds. But there is nothing to stop any member of the public attempting to de-list Louise House on an annual basis.

Roz,
De-listing would not, at this stage give us a better pool, certainly not by the end of 2012, nor would it help use the site for community uses. What it would enable is for the council to sell the site for the maximum profit, to a developer wishing to build a large number of flats on an empty site sandwiched between a listed building and a swimming pool. I can see no possibility of keeping the site in community use if it were de-listed. The council would be obligated to maximise the value of the land sale, and there are many in the council who would like to use the site to help achieve the difficult housing targets set by local and regional government.

What we do have is a small opportunity to do something special with a building which the council cannot make any money from due to its listed status. The merits of listing this building is hardly the issue, what is the issue should be how can this site be best used for the community and I am pleased that there are some in the community who are putting a lot of effort into exploring these options.

I would love to see the building used for small theatre productions, occasional cinema, music lessons, drama lessons, dance and yoga classes. I think such a development would be of great benefit to the whole community but especially to young people.

If the building can be maintained in community ownership, then the best tribute to Korczak would be to involve young people in the area in making decisions about what should take place in the building and how it is run. I would suggest that young people are given 50% of the say in the management of this project - not an easy ask. But from having read a variety of documents about Korczak, I expect that this is what he would do today with such an opportunity.

Roz,

If you can work up plans which will provide cost effective community facilities on the site of Louise House, then I would love to hear them. If the fact that Louise House is listed proves to be the reason that your business plan fails, then I would consider delisting at that point.

However, I feel that starting with an application to delist the building is totally the wrong mindset. Any reuse of Louise House willl obviously involve some degree of modification; this is not prevented by listing, merely controlled.

The London Borough of Lewisham's deadline for "expressions of interest" for a new community use for this building passed on 2nd November 2009. Three proposals have been submitted to the Council via the Friends of Louise House. These are:
1) for serviced offices and a community nursery
2) for an Arts Centre
3) for ownership of the building by the National Trust.

Between now and 31st March 2010, these proposals will be investigated by the Council and an opportunity given for them to be worked up into full scale proposals, with indications of funding and medium term business plans.

To see outlines of the proposals, follow this link:

http://louisehouse.notlong.com

Where did the idea of extending the library go?
After all, even one of the council's pool plans (before the listing) extended the library onto top floor of the new building.

The new library is short of space and facilities.
It has no periodicals and little seating.
If LH had a study area with wifi, it would be full up (as is the main library at lewisham) and there is probably is no limit to the rooms you could fill with PCs, as this too is very popular and useful for study purposes.

I could be wrong, but I think Lewisham Council did not want to extend the library due to the costs involved in staffing the additional building and the fact that they would be responsible for the refurbishment. They are keen to get this asset out of their hands so that it does not lead to additional costs for the council.