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Je Suis Charlie
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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #1
08-01-2015 02:10 PM

Viva La France & liberty from terrorists - they will never beat us

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milliemop


Posts: 183
Joined: Oct 2011
Post: #2
08-01-2015 02:19 PM

We need a like button 👍

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Londondrz


Posts: 1,538
Joined: Apr 2006
Post: #3
08-01-2015 03:58 PM

Ditto!

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Novels


Posts: 83
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #4
09-01-2015 12:57 PM

Je Suis Charlie

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crassbelch
Banned Troll

Posts: 130
Joined: Nov 2013
Post: #5
09-01-2015 01:00 PM

[Hate content removed by admin]

This post was last modified: 09-01-2015 01:02 PM by crassbelch.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #6
09-01-2015 01:20 PM

Well said - most people would agree with you - yet are to scared of the PC brigade

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Yasmine


Posts: 17
Joined: Jun 2010
Post: #7
09-01-2015 02:11 PM

Foreign press now reporting on shooting and hostage situation by the Montrouge killer in a kosher supermarket. Lovely stuff again.

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michael


Posts: 3,223
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #8
09-01-2015 03:53 PM

crassbelch Wrote:
Confront the ugly reality that 78% of British Muslims state that cartoon authors should be prosecuted if they challenge Muslim beliefs

They are entitled to that view, just as many people opposed Gerry Springer the Musical or The Life of Brian. In a free society we are entitled to hold different beliefs about what is offensive and we have a (secular) court system that decides what should be allowed and what is grossly offensive or inciting racial hatred.
There are many cartoons from 1930s Germany that would not be allowed in today's due to inciting hatred. Iran even had a competition to design the most offensive cartoon about the holocaust (as did an Israeli media organisation )

My point here is that it is completely wrong to view all Muslims, or even 78% of British Muslims, as supportive of violence against cartoonists or anybody else. The few fanatics and terrorists need to be dealt with, but please do not do them the honour of suggesting they represent Islam. That is not to suggest that they have 'nothing to do with Islam' but some in the Islamic community preach nasty things, and that needs to be dealt with, just as it should be when preachers of other religions (or none) promote hatred and violence against people with other beliefs, races, homosexuals, doctors, or cartoonists.

In a civilised society violence is never the correct punishment for any crime, let alone a different lifestyle.

Britain, and London in particular, is an example of a well integrated community. There are few monocultural areas within London, which is very different to the segregation found in many American cities. On the whole British tolerance and gradual unforced assimilation has worked very well in Britain and continues to do so.

Anti-semitism in France is not limited to some in the Muslim community but has a long history among some in the wider community in France. The Dreyfus affair was one of the first examples of institutional anti-semitism in what was meant to be a country of equality. Despite this and the claims of Jews fleeing France, there remain more Jews in France than in Britain. And I hope that today's events does not change that.

But don't let this liberal attitude fool you. I have been in favour of banning Hizb ut-Tahrir since my time at university in the 1990s. Had this happened back then the radicalisation for many in the UK may not have happened. Only in 2004 was it added to NUS 'No platform' list, and I think it was made illegal in 2007.

We need to be tough with people who are inciting hatred and violence but accepting and tolerant of people who may have some different values to our own. And we should not assume that anybody falls into the first camp just because of their religion.

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Perryman


Posts: 810
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #9
09-01-2015 05:30 PM

Quote:
Ensure religion does not creep into the state - for starters by ridding the house of Lords of all its religious peers.

Quite right.
Then they can remove compulsory RE from the state schools' syllabus.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #10
10-01-2015 03:19 PM

The content of Charlie Hebdo was a poor example of ' free speech' . It was crude, gross, racist and largely Islamophobic and made racism respectable. It most certainly isnt Private Eye. A bit like the casual racism attributed to UKIP. Hardly constructive in a divisive society or worth dying for or seeing loved ones killed. There is a line and Charlie crossed it. A country as divisive as France would do better than to align itself with such a magazine despite recent atrocities. Rather assume a more sophisticated and mature position than continue to polarise society which is already leading to attacks on mosques and synagogues.

I would recommend listening to and taking cues from the likes of Will Self and Michael Rosen on the subject rather than even sadly the British Humanist Association and certainly the French government who couldnt display either a woman or a person of colour on its recent media appearances.

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Codrington Brill


Posts: 66
Joined: Mar 2012
Post: #11
10-01-2015 06:13 PM

I'm a bit concerned about the subtle suggestions being made here and elsewhere that most muslims support what happened in Paris - have you seen Rupert Murdoch's "maybe most moslems peaceful..." tweet? Awful.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
10-01-2015 08:14 PM
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Novels


Posts: 83
Joined: Apr 2008
Post: #13
11-01-2015 11:49 AM

Thanks Roz, it is very interesting to read.

My thoughts on the matter:
I work with young people who speak other languages than English.
Some come from countries where they are told what to think, and since that does not, by and large, happen over here, they lose their points of reference and become easy targets.

I think that, bad as it might sound, a lot of young people want to be told what to believe in... what is right and what is wrong... what is worth fighting for. And radicalisation seems, for some, the best proposal.

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roz


Posts: 1,796
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #14
11-01-2015 11:54 AM

Thats a very interesting theory. Freedom of thought in what is essentially a vacuum for some must produce some challenges like you say.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #15
13-01-2015 02:39 PM

Oh dear, they have issued yet another cartoon about islam

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poolsneighbour


Posts: 162
Joined: Mar 2011
Post: #16
14-01-2015 05:36 PM

I do wonder what world, or even which City, some of you people live in! Left wing utopian ideas of this "perfect civilisation" in which we live.. about far from the reality as possible!

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #17
16-01-2015 09:26 AM

So we get told that these attacks by ISIS etc are pay backs for what we did in Iraq & Afghanstan, so how come they are now targeting little old Belgium, they have never hurt or offended anyone.

Firmly believe that these people want to destroy the western world and have us all living back in the stone ages

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Perryman


Posts: 810
Joined: Dec 2006
Post: #18
16-01-2015 02:32 PM

Little old Belgium just last year, rightly or wrongly, contributed six F-16 bombers to the campaign against Islamic State and have hit targets there.
(And they also seem to be providing more than their fair share of jihadist fighters.)
They are in a war, like it or not.

The Charlie Hebdo massacre for me had a different message though.
This was a targeted attack that may well have been undertaken regardless of France's involvement in any war.

This post was last modified: 16-01-2015 02:32 PM by Perryman.

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ForestHillier


Posts: 490
Joined: Jul 2010
Post: #19
16-01-2015 02:41 PM

Thanks Perryman - was not aware about that, maybe I should have studied it a bit more.

You may well be right about Charlie.

Still think that their [ ISIS etc ] ultimate goal is to make the whole world muslim

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PVP


Posts: 271
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #20
16-01-2015 05:13 PM

I think I said before here, what matters is to stop all the fighting, invading, bombing. It is very easy for western politicians to wring their hands and cry freedom and deny any responsibility for what is happening. The other is irrational and filled with hate. Or perhaps not.

NATO have been playing the great game ever since the end of the cold war; overthrowing governments, training and funding any opposition who often consist of the world's nutjobs. When they are killing (hundreds of thousands of) brown people over there that is fine, it's the birth pangs of democracy, cannot make an omelette blah blah. When some of these nutjobs turn up in Europe and god forbid attack (a dozen) white people it is the most evil act on the planet.

What happened in Paris was awful. But it is the responsibility of those who planned and carried it out, not fault of an entire religion. That is a line peddled by those who want the west to continue to interfere and so perpetuate the cycle of killing and revenge. All religions have had their terrorists, people who have abused their moral righteousness (Nazi Germany and Christianity anyone?), yet only islam is singled out for collective guilt.

Reading and hearing what is being said at the moment, if you substituted islam for Judaism or Christianity, or Mohammed for Jesus or Moses, would it be allowed? I really do not think so. It seems we only believe in free speech when it is crudely insulting one religion on the most provocative base terms.

So rather than ratcheting up the hate and blame, how about winding it back a bit?

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