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UK participation in bombing in Iraq/Syria
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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #1
24-09-2014 11:51 AM

Here is the text of an email I have just sent to Jim Dowd about this :

Quote:
I hope you will vote in Parliament against this, unless there is a Security Council resolution in favour of international military intervention. The classic conditions for a ‘just war’ do not seem to me to have yet been met. Violence and killing people (including, inevitably, innocent civilians) must be a last resort.

In any case, enough damage has already been caused by unilateral Western meddling in this part of the world, which it is so easy for the Islamists to portray as either a ‘crusade’ or as neo-imperialism to protect our oil. Why do we need to follow the Americans’ foolish lead? I have not seen a plausible account of what the ‘success criteria’ for any action would be (except that , whatever they are, they could take years to fulfil) , and there is a clear danger of mission creep. ISIL may say they want to carry their jihad to Britain and other Western countries, but in practice their prospects of being able to do this on any substantial scale cannot be very large. So bombing Iraqis or Syrians would, in my view,be a disproportionate response to a comparatively small threat to our national interests

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michael


Posts: 3,216
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #2
24-09-2014 12:33 PM

The unwillingness of the West and particularly the UK parliament to carry out military action against a regime that used chemical weapons against civilians, prolonged the conflict in Syria, allowed the extremists to gain more power over the more moderate rebels, and led to them being a direct threat to Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey.

We could chose not to intervene in Syria again, and this time it might be the right answer. But by refusing to defend civilians in Iraq and Syria against brutal mercenaries and brutal government forces, we will be condemning millions more civilians to become refugees, tens of thousands to death, and thousands to torture and rape.

We get all outraged by a few beheadings of British and American citizens, while choosing to ignore the same fate befalling hundreds or thousands or civilians in the north of Iraq at the hands of the same groups.

NATO should have imposed a no fly zone over Syria a couple of years ago. NATO should now prevent the movement of military vehicles anywhere in Syria and Iraq except with their permission.

What we have seen is exactly what occurred when the Soviet Union left Afghanistan. I expect the same will happen again in Afghanistan - probably next year, and the Taliban will be back in charge (or possibly a more extreme group).

We should not forget that there have been plenty of peacekeeping operations that have not been complete failures and that have saved the lives of millions of innocent civilians. Of course it is easier to not get involved and to allow the slaughter and torture to continue, but I don't believe that is the moral choice.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #3
24-09-2014 04:11 PM

I wouldn't call this a 'peacekeeping operation.' And surely it is primarily the warring factions rather than us who are 'condemning' people to homelessness, death, torture and rape.

I agree of course that the so-called 'Islamic State' appears to be acting in a cruel and barbarous way. Also that the war (like all wars) is causing appalling suffering. But I'm not convinced that we in the West will make things better by joining in, at any rate without formal UN approval. I fear we shall make them worse.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #4
24-09-2014 04:45 PM

Personally I think the Coalition caused this problem by removing Saddam Hussain on the absurd pretext that he had weapons of mass destruction. The UN's Inspector denied that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and USA and UK realising that they could not get a UN resolution withdrew their application and claimed they did not need one.

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michael


Posts: 3,216
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #5
24-09-2014 04:57 PM

Robin Wrote:
But I'm not convinced that we in the West will make things better by joining in, at any rate without formal UN approval.

So if there is UN agrees you would be happy to see military intervention? We really have to wait for Russia (the same Russia that is currently quietly invading their neighbours) to agree to any action to stop this situation?
In my opinion an international body such as the UN should not restrict human rights to the lowest sense of morality at the security council.

Robin Wrote:
surely it is primarily the warring factions rather than us who are 'condemning' people to homelessness, death, torture and rape

I agree. But we have the capability to intervene and reduce these actions. I don't like to think that my country finds it preferable to watch these people die rather than upset a political balance that does not exist.

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PVP


Posts: 271
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
25-09-2014 10:08 AM

Good question. Personally I do not think we should get involved further. I use the word further as the UK has a significant responsibility for creating this mess in the first place. The invasion of Iraq created the void for such groups to come to power in the first place. We (primarily US) also encouraged the sectarian fighting in Iraq as it meant our occupation could be prolonged. Over the years the west armed various militias as suited our short-term strategic aims, and hey presto several years later chaos rules.

http://www.popularresistance.org/how-the...ated-isis/

The west has been trying to overthrow Assad for several years, this is just another move towards the same goal. As for the chemical attack, most serious journalists and experts agree it was probably a false flag run by our own allies.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-h...e-rat-line

But, hey, it fit our narrative so it must be true!

Above all else, each time we start bombing it inevitably leads to thousands dying, societies being ripped asunder, refugees, misery and destruction for years to come. Just follow the trail from Iraq to Libya to Yemen. If we go further back Somalia, Ethiopia, Mali, various central American countries can all be included. I struggle to think of an example where the common people ever emerged better off than before.

I do not any one in power really gives a c**p about the poor suffering people of Syria, Iraq, etc. It is just PR flack to cover the fact yet again we are bombing another country illegally, one which has not threatened the UK.

Rant over, it really gets to me how immoral we have come in our foreign policy.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,355
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #7
25-09-2014 02:34 PM

I don't think we can take the high moral ground over public beheadings as we used to do it at the Tower of London and in Whitehall.

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Townleygreen


Posts: 12
Joined: Jul 2012
Post: #8
30-09-2014 03:48 PM

Sherwood said "I don't think we can take the high moral ground over public beheadings as we used to do it at the Tower of London and in Whitehall."

What are you on about? that was centuries ago!! And was carried out by people who are long dead. Not comparable to people who were featured doing this live on various websites.

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Erekose


Posts: 553
Joined: May 2010
Post: #9
03-10-2014 01:53 PM

Yes there was no 'coalition of the willing' around to step in and stop us when we used to think this was a good way to behave....fortunately we have moved on from such barbarism and given enough time I'm sure the same will be true in the Middle East.

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