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Scottish Independence
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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #1
02-09-2014 01:17 PM

What do people in SE23 think of Scottish Independence referendum?

I used to think it would be bad for the UK, but I'm not sure any longer. I'm not really bothered about whether it is good or bad for Scotland, after all people living in Scotland are the only people who get a vote, so they can look out for themselves. My question is what is best for English people, and particularly those in SE23.

I guess there are concerns about the loss of oil taxes from UK government government income, but we should regard the oil revenue as a 'bonus' (isn't that what Darling said). Overall it is debatable whether Scotland contributes more than their fair share to UK economy.

More importantly the West Lothian question will be answered, with education and health policy south of the border no longer determined by Scottish MPs. There are concerns about the possibility of a one-party state in England, but that could be solved by an improved electoral system, and I suspect that political parties will realign after possible Scottish independence.

UK will keep their EU rebate, Scotland won't get it.
UK will keep control of the £, and Scotland will have no say over our economic policy.
UK will be able to change our time zone in line with the rest of Western Europe.
UK will get more jobs in the defence industry and possibly in finance.

And I think for English students studying in Scotland the fees might need to be waived, as they have to do for other EU nationals. As a former student in Edinburgh, I think this would be great for English students, however, Scottish students may find all their university places taken by English fee dodgers.

All this leads me to believe that the loss of 5.3m people from the UK (about 7%) would at most have a negligible impact on the UK economy. We should be daring them to vote to leave the union, and we should be clear that if they vote to stay in then the West Lothian question will need to be sorted out to give greater democracy to England.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,412
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #2
03-09-2014 09:13 AM

the Scots were originally persuaded to join the union with England for financial incentives. They had lost a lot of money trying unsuccessfully to build the Panama Canal!

In the words of Robert Burns, they (the Scottish MPs) were "bought and sold for English gold".

I think the rest of the UK will benefit financially if Scotland becomes independent. I think the oil is supposed to be running out soon.

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mcbain23


Posts: 32
Joined: May 2013
Post: #3
03-09-2014 10:54 AM

My Father is Scottish and I was up there just last week visiting him in Dundee.

From what I could gather, it's fairly secure that the No vote will prevail and the union won't be broken.

What was evident however is that even if/when the No vote wins the debate is not going to go away. This whole process has certainly achieved one thing - which is to have brought the related issues to the fore, which can only be a good thing imo.

My gut feeling is that the Scots will inevitably one day gain their independence, just not this time around. They need time to sort out the grey areas - fiscal policy being the biggy - but they'll get there in the end.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,412
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #4
03-09-2014 01:03 PM

Perhaps Scotland could be made more of an independent state, but without totally leaving the UK.

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blushingsnail


Posts: 371
Joined: Dec 2005
Post: #5
05-09-2014 10:50 AM

The SNP proposes that UK students would continue to pay university fees in Scotland. That would contravene EU rules, but no matter, it's just another bit of EU legislation that an independent Scotland would miraculously exempt itself from, along with needing to follow the existing process to join as a new member and adopting the Euro.

I'm in Scotland at the moment and I've seen two Union flags - the first time I have ever seen a Union flag flying in Scotland. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the result will be No, but I've been surprised by the number of people I know who aren't in favour of independence. And the level of scepticism about whether Alex Salmond actually wants independence - some think he really wants increased powers devolved from Westminster.

Of course the most important question, from an English perspective, is would an independent Scotland have a negative effect on the price and availability of Tunnock's Teacakes? Caramel Wafers I'm not so bothered about, but I don't want anything getting in the way of me and my teacakes.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,412
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #6
06-09-2014 08:13 AM

We may have to smuggle Tunnock's teacakes over the border! Even Hadrian's Wall won't keep them out!

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MightyMouse


Posts: 122
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #7
06-09-2014 09:07 AM

They're not quite the same, but Marks and Spencer teacakes are a not-bad alternative if it comes to that...

As for independence - can't see how it will affect me as an individual, to be honest. Can't see it happening, either - but I kind of wish it would because I like interesting things happening, and it would be pretty interesting!

Alas, I'll be literally in the desert on the 18th, with barely a wifi signal and surrounded by folks who think Scotland is in England anyway, so I'll miss out on all the TV talking heads-ness.

But as someone who identifies firmly as English, not British - if they want to go, *shrug* - see ya!

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #8
06-09-2014 11:36 AM

MightyMouse - M&S tea cakes are ALL wrong. They have a chocolate biscuit base. Wrong. The mallow is firm and spongy. Also wrong. They are just... wrong.

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MightyMouse


Posts: 122
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #9
06-09-2014 03:29 PM

Though they are smaller than Tunnocks so I can get a whole one in without effort. So there's that in their defence...

Yeah, I'd say this is about the level of Scottish Independence conversation amongst all the English people I know, really.

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Sherwood


Posts: 1,412
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #10
07-09-2014 10:11 AM

It's not surprising that the English are not interested. We are not being given a vote.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #11
08-09-2014 08:57 AM

We should be interested. We might not have a vote, but I think we need to start preparing ourselves psychologically for break up of the UK.

Rather than scaremongering that we will become a lesser player on the world stage when the UK population drops to the level it was at in the mid-1990s, we should understand that 'Rest of UK' will continue to be a world power, while Scotland (like Republic of Ireland) will be an independent ally with more problems to worry about than the larger United Kingdom.

What shouldn't happen is for the UK government to bribe the Scots to stay in the UK. Any devolution should be matched in Wales, Northern Ireland, and England (of even to the level of London - with a larger population than Scotland).

Whatever the Scots decide, I will remain very fond of the country.

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #12
08-09-2014 09:58 AM

You are right Michael. If Scotland votes Yes then it will also surely signal the end of Great Britain (a term which was only introduced with the Act of Union). Which, incidentally actually means Big Britain to distinguish it from Brittany - but lots of other people, including many eminent politicians, give it much more baggage than that so as to imply Great meaning fab. Big psychological blow indeed.

That all said, no point worrying about it until/if it happens.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #13
08-09-2014 10:30 AM

My worry is the psychological damage it will do to English people who think that Scottish independence will be the end of civilisation. It really is a big change, one that we are completely unprepared for in England. I can imagine resurgent nationalism sweeping across England as a sense of belonging is reinvented. The best thing for UKIP is victory for the SNP.

Sadly there has been absolutely no preparation (psychologically or politically) in England for the break up of the union. Recent reports talk about emergency legislation to delay the UK general election, which would otherwise become a farce, although continuing to have Scottish MPs and Lords at Westminster would also be highly problematic.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #14
08-09-2014 10:57 AM

I see two University of St Andrew's alumni are doing their bit to protect the union for their son to inherit intact.
I predict a swing back to 'No' due to this wonderful news for all Subjects in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #15
15-09-2014 09:36 AM

Quote:
What shouldn't happen is for the UK government to bribe the Scots to stay in the UK. Any devolution should be matched in Wales, Northern Ireland, and England (of even to the level of London - with a larger population than Scotland).

I think the offer of 'devo max' is in effect a bribe, Michael, but I am worried about what the implications would be for England if the bribe is accepted and 'devo max' actually happens. Everyone seems to be talking about a 'federal UK', but to be ruling out an English Parliament. The only alternative on offer seems to involve devolution ('devo max'?) to 'city regions' (whatever they are - what 'city regions' are Cornwall, Norfolk, Lincolnshire and Cumbria part of?) As a patriotic Englishman, I would be very uneasy about seeing England split up into separate cantons. Back to the Heptarchy?

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #16
15-09-2014 10:14 AM

Devolution in the GLA has been good for London, primarily in the realm of transport but also in promoting London on the world stage. I'm sure similar devolution to a Northern powerhouse including Liverpool and Leeds would be of great benefit to the area and could begin to address London's dominance of the UK economy.

But they would continue to require massive subsidy from South East England if they were to improve their infrastructure. So there is no point given them tax raising powers when they are not net contributors to the UK economy, their only option for growth would be to lower tax rates outside London and rely more heavily on subsidies from Londoners. What's really in it for us?

The other problem with devolving power to the regions is exactly what happened with elected police chiefs. Seriously low turnout, few powers, and some people in the roles who really shouldn't be in there roles given their history.

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