As someone who did sign the petition, with some reservations, I should say that Stefan's general arguments are what persuaded me.

I don't honestly believe that the KEY objection is the potential for harm from alcohol (I say that as someone who works in the drinks trade), but it will be a factor, and it is, so far, the main route open to residents to express an opinion and to encourage debate within the community, in the council, and at Morrisons (who may note these discussions to gauge local opinion).

I have nothing against Morrisons as a brand. I would encourage shopping alternatives in this Sainsbury's dominated area (I like Waitrose, I admit it, but Ocado already deliver, I don't need it to open locally). If they proposed taking over the local Sainsburys or Coop, that would be one thing, but do we really need another convenience store in addition to them? There's a lot of talk about independent shops on the London Road side of the station, but there are also more "markets" on this side - 3 within spitting distance of the station exit alone. Whatever you think of their business sense, opening more local mini-markets, the arrival of a further big brand who will HAVE to do promotions to drive habitual visitors, makes it more likely that at least these shops will close.

The Forest Hill society and SEE3 have done such a great job to kick start local independent shops to open, it is incumbent on us to protect the area (and its best locations) from predatory decisions by brands who have the money, but not the local will. I want to, and do, spend as much money on these truly local businesses as I can and would welcome more choices. In any case, the local landscape will change dramatically if/when the Capitol changes use!

I know Michael is very experienced at this, and has FH's interest at heart, so I will go with what he suggests if he believes there are other ways to ensure we do the best for the local shopping experience, but my initial reaction was, and is, that Morrisons is not right for this site and it is useful to make some noise to point this out.

Just my 2¢

Good to hear from you again Rob.
Please don't think that I am some sort of expert on local shopping and retail development, there are many people with more experience and who put their money where there mouth is and open a local business. Let me add that the conversation on here is actually biased against local traders as they have to pay for the privileged of posting (unlike 'normal' residents). Although we may disagree on some points, I would prefer they were part of the conversation.

I have heard the argument made by some local businesses that it would be better if the Horniman Market were in the town centre, to increase footfall. Although they might be competing directly with some of the businesses, at least they would be in the same place. Morrisons may bring more people to the high street, it will certainly have more customers than M&Co. But, like the market traders, they will compete with some local businesses.

If some of the smaller shops find new life as niche providers, that may be good for Forest Hill's overall footfall, for example providing a specialist wine shop, or a health food shop, or a fishmonger, or a baker. None of these would be adversely impacted by Morrisons (the impact would be similar to having just Sainsburys), but clearly selling tobacco products, lottery tickets, confectionery, and some basic food lines is a more profitable business than a health food shop like Well Being, or the butcher/fishmonger Billings in Sydenham. Despite having Tesco, Coop, Boots, Superdrug, and Lidl, Sydenham is able to support a small number of lovely local shops. Forest Hill has yet to attain a fishmonger, health food shop, bakery, greengrocer, or at least it hasn't had these businesses for the last 20-30 years.

And your point is? Personally I couldn't care less if the traffic on the south circular is disturbed by Morrisons deliveries - as opposed to any other shop getting deliveries.

Sorry, but this suggestion as I said before is laughable. There is no way in the world that Morrisons opening a convenience store is going to add to any supposed alcohol problems in the area.

What right does an independent store have to my business that they can't stand a bit of competition. Maybe by being better. The butchers will continue to exist as it offers a superior product that's worth paying the extra for but if you are referring to one of the current 'convenience' stores along Dartmouth Road, well I don't frequent them at the moment as they are pokey little shops that don't attract me in at all.

I agree with you entirely. If you don't want to use the store don't. It's your money, spend it where you like.

I personally would prefer something other than Morrisons here. I certainly won't be using it. I think it's a pretty shabby supermarket and I'll continue to buy my meat at the butchers, get my fruit & veg delivered by Abel & Cole and probably will continue to use Sainsburys.

However, I'm not willing to put my own capital into opening the sort of shop that I would like to see so if someone else is (privately or corporately) then best of luck to them.

My complaints in this thread are about the pretense that this is about planning and other issues when it's probably about Morrisons not fitting in with peoples ideas as to what they would like to see in the area. Especially if they then claim to represent all the people of the area as opposed to a few individuals chatting on a forum and put together a petition on in my view very shaky grounds.

I think we have been honest about the fact that this is about more than just planning. It's just that - right now - we're focusing on the licensing application because it's what the council invited feedback on. I completely respect your views if you think this is a futile strategy - we'll agree to disagree.

As I mentioned before, I can't of course speak for other people but my position would be the same irrespective of the brand involved -- it just happens to be Morrisons in this case.

So far just over 200 people have signed the petition. No, this certainly doesn't represent all of FH, but it is a significant & growing group deserving of voicing their opinion to the council, who ultimately is at liberty to decide whether it has merit or not.

You make an excellent point regarding voting with our feet & money, and I do hope that many of those who have voiced their opposition will do exactly that, should the move indeed go ahead.

I'd like to ask what we can do to encourage independent businesses to move in.

Opposing anything that isn't seen as independent is a tactic I suppose, but I'd rather see something done at a higher level, perhaps through lower rates and other incentives for businesses that are wanted/ needed in the area.

I think the pop-up shop scheme was a step in the right direction.

What is likely to do more damage to Forest Hill? A shop opening selling similar things to other shops? Or a repulsive, lie-peddling, poverty-exploiting, community-ignoring church? You've a chance to get your priorities in order.

BringOutTheCranston, you're missing the point on deliveries altogether. It's not about impacting cars passing through on the South Circular, but directly affecting the movements of local people walking along London Road. Whether the lorries are entering and exiting Havelock Walk multiple times each day or whether they are moving loads of trolleys up and down the pavement from the loading bays, this will affect pedestrians, with significant safety issues, especially for vulnerable people. It will also generally make this part of Forest Hill less pleasant (more noise, more pollution and unsightly large lorries).

Then there are the indirect impacts. If they do block a lane of traffic, this will undoubtedly affect the pedestrian crossings in the area, which are pretty c**p already. Again, this has implications for safety, pollution, noise, etc.

If it was simply about someone driving on the South Circular through Forest Hill being delayed a bit I wouldn't care. But it's not, so I do.

Hear hear!

Oh come on. They’re probably talking about 2 or 3 deliveries a day. Hardly going to change the aesthetics or safety of that stretch of London Road.

Another defence is "fair comment".

But it may block vehicle access to Havelock Walk for 30 minutes at a time, three times a day (your suggestion of frequency, not mine). It may include initial deliveries at 6am every day, to a street which is partially residential. In fact there are double red lines in Havelock Walk for a distance down the road. The nearest loading bay is outside the chicken shop, which might mean all stock would need to be unloaded there and taken round to Havelock Walk, past one of the busiest bus stops in Forest Hill. They would be unlikely to do that, they would just block Havelock Walk until they are finished.

And it is reasonable to ask where all the rubbish will be stored. The rear of M&Co is a very small courtyard which provides access to flats above. The entrance to Havelock Walk already has a few large commercial bins, how many would be too many?

Over the last few days I have been reading these posts and those about the Capitol with great interest.

I would just like to add my two penny worth.

M & Co have been in Forest Hill for more years than I care to remember, in one form or another. I have to say I am saddened to see the number of people who have never been in there. It is great for the more mature woman and for babies and children. Perhaps if more people had made use of them they wouldn't be closing and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I personally don't think we need another food and drink shop, nor do we need a wine retailer. Do we want Forest Hill to turn into another Lordship Lane. What was once an excellent high street (I grew up there) is now full of pretentious idiots, yummy mummies and daddies with their ill disciplined children, I don't think so.

Good points Michael. I will also add that on construction sites (well managed ones anyway) lorries don't reverse without banksmen for very good and real safety reasons. Why then would it be acceptable to have lorries with massive blind spots reversing three times a day through public space into Havelock Walk, with young children, school kids, parents with buggies and all sorts of less mobile people trying to get by? Not acceptable from my point of view.

many thanks for explaining the background of this particular objection.

Hardly, it's a case of you disagree and don't like constructive criticism which goes against your opinion. At least Bring Out the Cranston has raised some excellent points on the pro-Morrisons side without the need to exaggerate the anti M stance.

As for your other question comparing the Capitol turning into a church and the change of a clothes retailer to yet another chain grocer in FH, both are equally as damaging in their own way.

Totally disagree with some of the people here.


Objecting to a Morrisons on the basis of selling alcohol because it might have people drinking on the street or fuel alcohol related violence. What absolute load of unfounded, unsupported non-sense.


There are pubs in every direction, Sainsburys and that local shop that all sell alcohol.


If you're objecting based on these grounds, you will get nowhere.


My reasons for objecting to a Morrisons local.
1. Waste disposal and deliveries. I have no idea where they will store their rubbish bins or allow trucks to deliver. You can't exactly pull over on the South Circular. Havelock Walk isn't sufficient either?

My personal reason for not wanting a Morrisons local.
1. These "local" "metro" "express" grocery stores offer no value and their prices are more expensive than standard stores. They don't have variety or offer a good range of products / deals either.


I personally don't think you can object to a store just because you don't like what they sell. If they adhere to all the local trading laws then good luck to them. Having said that, as above, I have concerns over rubbish disposal and deliveries.

Not exaggerating anything. Just pointing out how weak the initial case was, which apparently is grounds for a libel action. I see you're now developing it from OMG ALCOHOL NO OMG!!! which is to be welcomed. I never knew there were so many puritans in Forest Hill. Had you waited a little while and actually put some thought into it, you might not have needed to hang your objections on something that always smacked of being deeply insincere. I still think the deliveries argument is highly speculative, and that you should base any objections to it on what Morrisons actually say, rather than 'well, some bloke on the forum says they'll need a lorry there two or three times a day, backing into the next street, and there's no way they'll park outside the gym, no.'

'Equally damaging?'. Don't be silly. The existing Temples of Fiction and Homophobia in Forest Hill cause parking chaos on Sundays - try walking from the pools to the station. It's not only planning laws that are ignored. This one would just make things ridiculous. Ask the people in Crystal Palace whether they'd rather have a little Morrisons than what they've got.

I'm also fed up with the 'what we need' argument and WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A FISHMONGERS! This isn't how these things work.

If From the Forest isn't reopening it would make an excellent spot for a fishmongers, and nice and close to the new Morrisons.

[Lights blue touchpaper and runs for cover]

And put the existing trader (the Hastings van outside Smiths) out of business

(Actually, does he still visit? I come in the other side of the station these days)

He (Grant) was there this morning, and every Thursday morning. He also does home deliveries during the day on Thursday.

These days I tend to get my fish from Billings stall at the Horniman market on a Saturday.