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Poll: Are you for or against the proposed Morrisons Local?
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Planning Application: M&Co to become a Morrisons Local?
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ruthg41


Posts: 8
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #21
14-07-2014 07:43 PM

Hi all. Could someone please explain the objection to the proposed Morrisons local, selling alcohol? Whilst the newsagents/grocers is very convenient, well run and useful, it also sells alcohol until 2am. We also have pubs coming out of our ears in FH, so I don't see the problem. Or am I missing something?

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,075
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #22
14-07-2014 08:07 PM

If there was reported cases of alcohol related incidents related to I.S. Food and Wine, which I suspect there isn't, I don't think it'll sway the council from approving the licence.

What could be done is pressuring Morrisons not to open in FH considering the saturation of the convenience store market. Sainsburys, Tesco and the Co-op are within 5 mins walking distance of M&Co, in addition to I.S. and the other stores in Dartmouth Road.

This isn't a HOP issue where Sainsbury's Local added something to the local area. We simply don't need them here.

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stefan74uk
Unregistered


Post: #23
14-07-2014 08:09 PM

Hi ruthg41 - the general view amongst those of us opposing this is that we would rather not have another major supermarket chain on our high street, given that (1) this market in general - and the retail alcohol market specifically - is already well catered for as you say and (2) major chains like Morrisons have deep pockets which means that they can offer discounts, which not only increases the availability of cheap alcohol late at night but also poses a threat to local traders, whose interests we are keen to protect.

Because both Morrisons and M&Co are "A1" retailers, they don't need to apply for initial planning permission for the change in business, so there isn't an opportunity to oppose them on those grounds (although this may change if they apply for permission to make alterations). So, at the moment the only official means of opposition is for us to object to the alcohol premises licence, and to make this effective we need to align our opposition with the official council licensing objectives, i.e:

- prevention of crime and disorder
- protection of children from harm
- public safety
- prevention of public nuisance.

I don't think there's any harm in limiting the range of alcoholic beverages on sale late at night in a market that's already oversubscribed, and it will help us ascertain whether there is indeed sufficient local opposition to the opening of another supermarket chain. We can then use such support to inform the conversation if and when further planning applications are submitted.

It goes without saying of course that this is only an attempt to gauge popular opinion at this stage ... if there isn't public support for our opposition then there's nothing more to say!

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 654
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #24
14-07-2014 09:59 PM

I'm 100% opposed.
I can see it leading to street drinkers congregating around the station car-park and a general
increase in the kind of gatherings we see outside Paddy Power.
Also despite me making a flippant comment about wanting a Waitrose earlier in the thread I would much prefer an independent or a smaller 'group' of stores such as Planet Organic taking over the space.
At present the nearest decent sized organic food-shop is Wholefoods n Clapham.
either way any petition to keep Morrisons out I'll sign gladly.

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nottinghillbilly


Posts: 654
Joined: Dec 2010
Post: #25
14-07-2014 10:12 PM

By the way..I've signed the Change petition. via the earlier posters link.

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BringOutTheCranston


Posts: 81
Joined: Sep 2013
Post: #26
15-07-2014 10:51 AM

I’m not sure whether to laugh or hold my head in my hands.

You are going to oppose the Morrisons application on the grounds of the alcohol licence for “protection of children from harm”

Are you saying that somehow Morrisons opening a convenience store is going to increase the amount of booze being consumed in the streets of Forest Hill.

What utter nonsense.

You may not be happy that Morrisons is opening as “we simply don't need them here”. Maybe people would prefer a different type of shop. That’s fine, we are all entitled to our opinion, but to suggest fighting it on planning grounds is laughable.

And what makes people think that we don’t need a Morrisons? Sainsburys, or any other current store, has no right to be the only grocery store in the area and if Morrisons want to come and out-compete them then they are perfectly at liberty to do so within the current planning laws.

As my previous post on the matter suggested, if the application had been from Waitrose everyone would have thought this was great and indicative of an upcoming area.

The Waitrose effect on house prices

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edpaff


Posts: 51
Joined: Apr 2012
Post: #27
15-07-2014 10:58 AM

If anyone hasn't seen it, the notice as posted around FH reads:

Notice is hereby given that on 10 July 2014 Wm Morrison Supermarkets PLC applied to London Borough of Lewisham for the grant of a Premises Licence in respect of premises Morrisons M Local, 10/12 London Road, Forest Hill, Lewisham, London, SE23 3HF.

The proposed licensable activities are the sale by retail of alcohol from 0600 to 2400 Monday to Sunday inclusive.

Any representations by a responsible authority or any other person regarding the above-mentioned application must be received in writing by:- Licensing Services, London Borough of Lewisham, 4th Floor, Laurence House, 1 Catford Road, London, SE6 4RU (tel: 020 8314 6400) no later than 7 August 2014 stating the grounds for representations.

The register of the application may be inspected during normal office hours at the address given above.

It is an offence knowingly or recklessly to make a false statement in connection with an application. The maximum fine for which a person is liable on summary conviction for the offence is £5,000.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #28
15-07-2014 12:34 PM

While I still consider that there could be better uses of the M&Co site, I won't personally be signing the petition.

The main losers of a Morrison's on this site will be Sainsbury's and a couple of small convenience shops, but not The Butchery, Sugar Mountain or Aga's Deli. But presumably there is an opportunity for smaller shops to fill the gap in the market left by the closure of M&Co.

There are already many places selling alcohol at all times of day, and I have to say that I always found it easier buying beer from small off-licenses or pubs when I was 17, rather than trying my luck in a national chain. The addition of Morrison's selling alcohol will make no difference to the determined street drinker.

Had this been a 'cute little wine shop' there would be virtually no objection to this application, it is fundamentally about another national chain coming to the town centre and nothing to do with the licensing issue. Had Morrison's wanted to take over Paddy Power (an ideal site for a small supermarket) would there still be the same level of opposition? I really hope not.

We used to have more national chains in Forest Hill than we do today (Tesco/Londis, McDonalds, KFC, Freeman Hardy Willis, Midland Bank) the high street will not be destroyed by a couple of them coming in. It is now about 10 years since Sainsburys expansion and the high street has re-formed in a more positive and independent state. But chains and independents can work side-by-side, just as they do in Lordship Lane and many other nice high street.

There are some valid concerns about the frequency of deliveries and rubbish storage (which were the issues that prevented Sainsburys opening in Kirkdale), but these have nothing to do with licensing.

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stefan74uk
Unregistered


Post: #29
15-07-2014 12:41 PM

Hi BringOutTheCranston

I for one don't have anything against Morrisons per se - my position would be the same if it were Waitrose or indeed any other general supermarket chain, simply because we already have Sainsbury's, Tesco & Co-op serving our area.

You make a fair point about strategy - and it remains to be seen whether using the licensing process will work. Others have tried it before (http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/loca...ol-7241364) so we thought we'd give it a shot, although that's of course no guarantee that it will work here. But if we do find significant local opposition we may use this platform to petition the council in other ways going forward.

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lacb


Posts: 627
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #30
15-07-2014 12:48 PM

I agree with Michael's points and would add that I have never been in M&Co nor even seen anyone else doing so. Am not sure whether a Morrisons Local would be serious competition for Sainsburys, though if it were so, then I would consider that a good thing - FH Sainsburys has been able to coast for way too long and frankly it shows.

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,075
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #31
15-07-2014 03:18 PM

You can see why Morrisons have chosen that location. Conveniently closer to the station than Sainsburys, they're attempting to attract passing trade who walk to and from the station, who'd normally go to I.S. or Sainsburys.

Sadly, chain convenience stores are still a growing market across the country, targeting exactly the market who commute to and from the rail station who haven't got time to go around Sainsburys to do a main shop.

However, there is a good argument that here in FH, the market is already saturated and adds nothing new to the retail fabric.

While FH is still recovering from the economic downturn, we're still not out of it and M Local adds nothing that will benefit the town in general, where as an East Dulwich style wine retailer would.

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jaradras


Posts: 45
Joined: Jan 2014
Post: #32
15-07-2014 03:19 PM

I am 100% for Morrisons opening this store.

I am an SE23 resident living not very far from the proposed store & use a variety of shops around there on a daily basis & at all hours of the day.

We live in a free country & if the law of the land allows the opening of another store, whatever the hours or merchandise on sale, then so be it. If there are any law & order issues it is for the Police to deal with those matters.

I will not be signing the petition as I do not see the opening of this store causing problems.

It would be useful for individuals especially traders or members of an interest group to declare an interest when voicing their opposition or support so that we have a better feel for where the support or opposition is coming from.

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #33
15-07-2014 03:19 PM

Spare me the carefully manufactured outrage about a shop selling things. This is all about Morrisons being a bit common for gentrifiers, and it's dishonest to pretend any different.

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,075
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #34
15-07-2014 03:29 PM

Quote:
Spare me the carefully manufactured outrage about a shop selling things. This is all about Morrisons being a bit common for gentrifiers, and it's dishonest to pretend any different.


Steady on, this is far from being a gentrification issue, this is about the over supply of a business which is already well served by chains and independents.

If the site became a Peacocks or a mini Primark, I wouldn't be against it considering it'd fill a gap in the market.

Morrisons brings nothing that Sainsburys, the Co-Op, Tesco and other retailers already provide.

While Michael argues that it won't directly affect those independent retailers such as The Butchery who are at the niche end of the food market, it's yet another retailer who'll they have to compete for. If it's a choice between a crappy piece of meat pre-packed by M or Sainsburys which are closer to the station or making the effort to go to the Butchery, it only makes it harder for them to compete with the big boys.

The only positive is that Morrisons senior management haven't got a clue about how to run the business since Sir Ken Morrison left. They're years behind Sainsburys on innovation and are playing catch-up in the convenience and home delivery market. They don't also know whether to be Waitrose or Kwik Save, while serving neither market.

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rshdunlop


Posts: 1,111
Joined: Jun 2008
Post: #35
15-07-2014 03:32 PM

As I understand it, it's not that there is an objection to the sale of alcohol as such, it's just that those are the only grounds on which an objection to the planning application can be made. So, if you don't want Morrisons to open there for WHATEVER reason, and want to lodge an objection, then raising the social issues around alcohol is the only way to do it.

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michael


Posts: 3,255
Joined: Mar 2005
Post: #36
15-07-2014 03:40 PM

jaradras wrote:
It would be useful for individuals especially traders or members of an interest group to declare an interest when voicing their opposition or support so that we have a better feel for where the support or opposition is coming from.

I'm not aware of anybody posting on this thread who runs a business in Forest Hill. I'm not aware of any other interest groups to which people may belong, nor am I aware of your membership of any interest groups. I'm the chair of the Forest Hill Society, but I like to think I'm speaking in a personal capacity when I say: "I won't personally be signing the petition".

Other people will have other views, and a discussion of the pros and cons of a new shop should be allowed. Any change will have implications, but these are not always easy to predict, and different people are entitled to different concerns.

It wasn't long ago that many of the same people (that time including me) were campaigning to keep a launderette on the high street rather than see it become an estate agent. It isn't just about gentrification, there are sensible concerns about the overall impact on the high street. And, as I said before, I don't think there would have been the same level of opposition if it were Paddy Power being replaced by Morrisons.

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shaman


Posts: 71
Joined: Nov 2009
Post: #37
15-07-2014 03:53 PM

Quote:
this is about the over supply of a business which is already well served by chains and independents.


A bit like if someone opened yet another coffee shop?

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,075
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #38
15-07-2014 03:53 PM

Paddy Power were fortunate that when they arrived into Forest Hill, it was pre the SEE3 Portas Pilot and was replacing an empty premises which had laid empty for years on a street lacking in traders, where as Morrisons is replacing a long standing fashion retailer.

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rbmartin


Posts: 1,075
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #39
15-07-2014 03:56 PM

Quote:
A bit like if someone opened yet another coffee shop?


The main difference here is that we're not a Starbucks/Costa town and each of those coffee shop traders brings something different to the town, where as Morrisons won't be bringing anything alternative which isn't being supplied elsewhere.

The fact that From the Forest has already closed down shows there's already saturation in that market.

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Baboonery


Posts: 581
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #40
15-07-2014 04:11 PM

Quote:
As I understand it, it's not that there is an objection to the sale of alcohol as such, it's just that those are the only grounds on which an objection to the planning application can be made. So, if you don't want Morrisons to open there for WHATEVER reason, and want to lodge an objection, then raising the social issues around alcohol is the only way to do it.


If that's not an admission that the objections are disingenuous at best, dishonest at the mid-case, and vexatious at the outside, I don't know what is.

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