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Undemocratic Liberals.
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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #21
06-07-2011 11:47 AM

Artificial Union. The Union with Scotland has lasted over 300 years. How many countries formed after that.

I agree The Empire not perfect but not all bad. Certainly a lot more humane than the Belgium or German Empires.

Are the Italians apologising for The Roman Empire , the Peruvians for Inca Empire , the Mongolians for the Mongol Empire.

These things happened in the past , most peoples in the world were guilty at one time or another of invading others.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #22
06-07-2011 02:54 PM

All fair points, Brian. I wasn't however that anyone should apologize for their past empires, just that I think that the British Empire was not something to we should look back in with pride - you may disagree.

Nationality is largely a matter of where you feel you belong. Although, as you say, e.g. Italy, Germany and the USA have not been around as nations as long as Britain has, most Germans and Americans at least (not sure about Italians) have for a long time thought of themselves primarily , (not exclusively) as such, rather than e.g. as Prussians or Texans.

In my case, I think of myself as primarily as English. The Lake District, the Yorkshire Dales, Stonehenge, Bede, Boniface, Alfred the Great, Becket, the English language, Wycliffe, Chaucer, warm beer, Thomas More, the Church of England, Edmund Campion, Margaret Clitheroe, William Byrd, Shakespeare, Donne, Bunyan, Milton, Purcell, Newton, cricket, football, rugby.... those are the words which press my buttons. Not slave traders, ironmasters, bankers, imperialists, Orangemen, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, invading Iraq, Britpop ...

'Cry God for Harry, Britain and St George !' Doesn't sound right, does it?

But perhaps you think I'm just a sentimental old Tory, Brian.

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #23
06-07-2011 03:08 PM

Robin
Agree with most of what you say. You are correct it is a personal preference whether one wishes to be refered to as British or English.

According to most forms ( which I usually refuse to indicate ) I am down as White British.
I really hate such stereotyping .

Not especially proud of The Empire but certainly not ashamed of it either.

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notstoppin


Posts: 32
Joined: Jun 2009
Post: #24
06-07-2011 05:19 PM

Robin, I can easily understand why your first collection of words 'floats your boat' and your second doesn't - but I don't see what either list has to do with the fact that you think of yourself primarily as English?

England as we know it didn't exist at the time of Boniface or Bede - and John Donne was of Welsh descent. Equally, there is some evidence to suggest that Margaret Thatcher is English, however tempted one is to deny it. So too were quite a lot of slave-traders, ironmasters and bankers. Or are you suggesting that we're English when we behave well but British when we don't (the obverse of the rule that would have applied to Andy Murray had he won Wimbledon)?

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brian


Posts: 2,002
Joined: Apr 2005
Post: #25
06-07-2011 05:45 PM

True England not in its present state until Athelston but Bede was in the Northunbrian Kingdom of the Angles so should qualify as English.
Also Edinborough was in the same Kingdom and a town founded and settled by Angles not the Scots.

Slavetraders could apply to virtually all ethnic groups over history.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #26
06-07-2011 07:23 PM

Thanks for your interesting comments, nostoppin and Brian.

My 'English' hurrah list was intended mostly to be restricted to geographical features and to historical people and events from before the Union of 1707. I admit that including Bede, Boniface and probably Alfred is a bit tendentious, in that England as a nation state (or indeed as a word, I discover from the OED) didn't yet exist in their day. 'Warm beer' (or at least the 'warm' bit) is also a little speculative; I was thinking of 'Turkey, heresy, hops and beer/Came into England all in one year' (some time in the 1520s?). John Donne was born in London, which makes him English in my book. Cricket, football and rugby are pushing it, I concede; they all originated in England and were codified here, but well after 1707.

Everything on my 'British' boo list refers, I think, to people or events after 1707. I agree that Margaret Thatcher is, in one sense, as English as I am (we are in fact both East Midlanders). But it was as chief executive of the British state that she did her damage, so I feel entitled to put her in the boo list.

Quote:
Or are you suggesting that we're English when we behave well but British when we don't?

I suppose I am, yes. But you know what it's like when you're in love - your beloved can do no wrong!

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jgdoherty


Posts: 372
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #27
06-07-2011 10:03 PM

robin, robin, robin

"...football .... I concede......originated in England and [rules] were codified here....."

Even FIFA, that paragon of world sporting authority led by their insufferable and unelectable supremo Sepp Blatter acknowledge that world football originated in both Scotland and England. As evidence I offer the fact that the very first international football match was played in Glasgow between Scotland and England, both of whose associations had to endorse the codification of rules in advance.

Hmm.., perhaps on reflection I have shot my own fox by relying on the support of such dubious authority.

I am sure there are others.

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robin orton


Posts: 716
Joined: Feb 2009
Post: #28
07-07-2011 07:06 AM

I guessed Mr/Ms Docherty might have something to say about that!

From Wikipaedia:

Quote:
The modern rules of association football are based on the mid-19th century efforts to standardise the widely varying forms of football played at the public schools of England. The history of football in England dates back to at least the eighth century.

The Cambridge Rules, first drawn up at Cambridge University in 1848, were particularly influential in the development of subsequent codes, including association football. The Cambridge Rules were written at Trinity College, Cambridge, at a meeting attended by representatives from Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Winchester and Shrewsbury schools. They were not universally adopted. During the 1850s, many clubs unconnected to schools or universities were formed throughout the English-speaking world, to play various forms of football. Some came up with their own distinct codes of rules, [...]

These ongoing efforts contributed to the formation of The Football Association (The FA) in 1863, which first met on the morning of 26 October 1863 at the Freemasons' Tavern in Great Queen Street, London.


The first (Scotland/England) international seems to have been nine years later, in 1872.

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jgdoherty


Posts: 372
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #29
07-07-2011 12:37 PM

I think a first millennium point will have to be conceded to England’s 8th Century citations for the earliest record of football being played as I can find no reference earlier than the 9th Century for a Scottish “ba’ game”.

However for more modern history, Scotland’s claims to being one of the game’s original founders have more provenances.

The National Archive of Scotland and Scottish Archive Network make brief reference to Raith Rovers Football and Athletic Club being in existence as early as 1847, a separate body from the modern club which formed n 1873.

In 1824 John Hope organised a season of games for the “Foot-Ball Club” he had formed in Edinburgh. This club played until at least 1841.

Obviously these clubs must have had some opponents, against whom they could compete.

So robin, the Cambridge Rules drawn up in 1848, might be seen as a culmination whereby codification was achieved of a number of different rules sets that had evolved and were used by football teams in the preceding years. This does not necessarily mark the invention of association football, but is clearly a very significant step in football’s evolution and not least because this codification was adopted by Scotland

Did I say that out loud ?

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jon14


Posts: 145
Joined: Sep 2007
Post: #30
07-07-2011 12:46 PM

If football in Scotland is so old, why arern't they any good at it? Wink

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jgdoherty


Posts: 372
Joined: Nov 2007
Post: #31
07-07-2011 12:59 PM

A quote recently seen online put it this way:

I do not mind supporting Scotland.

It is the hope I can't stand.


It does not escape me that ephemeral hope is also a major dilemma for England's supporters.

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notstoppin


Posts: 32
Joined: Jun 2009
Post: #32
07-07-2011 01:44 PM

I find the history of Scottish football fascinating.

When the first-ever international match was played, between Scotland and England, in 1872, the entire Scottish side was provided by Queen's Park, of Glasgow.

Queen's Park also won the (English) FA Cup that year, beating The Wanderers in the Final. A few years later, they were captained by Andrew Watson, the first black player in Britain to play top-level football.

To this day, Queens Park are an amateur side. Had they not spurned professionalism, one wonders whether the so-called 'auld firm' of Rangers and Celtic would have achieved their current pre-eminence.

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