SE23 Forum

Actually, the no vote celebs are even worse. It was going to be Tom Daley before they realised he wasn't old enough to vote!

Sorry, that was a mistake. For 'FPTP' read 'AV'.(And, while I'm at it, for 'Labouir', read 'Labour'.)

AV is used extensively in the US in various city- and state-level elections (where it's called Instant Run-off voting, which is actually probably a better description of the way it works). It's used to elect the Irish and Indian presidents, and to fill vacancies amongst 92 hereditary peers in the House of Lords. It's used in elections in New Zealand and for by-elections in countries that use STV (like Ireland, New Zealand, Scotland)

It's also now used to decide who wins Oscars, if that is of interest!

This isn't necessarily the case - in Australia, for example, AV counts are done manually.

If done manually must take more time surely.

Interesting point, Brian. I don't know whether there's an authoritative view, but this from a blog Google found for me:

(Emphasis added)

So I guess AV would produce fewer overnight declarations, which is a (little) bit of an argument against it, I suppose.

Michael,
They've been taken in by a partisan fraud. Next.

I'll elaborate. Towards the end of the last parliament, there was an orgy of dimwitted hatred directed towards politicians. Not least on here. The LibDems, the most political of parties, were playing this anti-politics game for all they were worth, just like they wittered on about expenses until David Laws got caught. Labour felt compelled to offer something on voting reform, but didn't want STV. The author of the Labour manifesto threw AV in, despite never being on record as supporting it before, in the knowledge that it would probably get nowhere. I forget the author's name. He's MP for somewhere in Yorkshire.

Alex - good of you to recite from your Big Book of LibDem Quotes About A Voting System We Hated Until Ten Minutes Ago.

You've made me forgot now as well. Didn't he do rather well in an AV vote? I wonder what his big brother thinks of AV?

Baboonery was it BALLS.

A short video has been made to explain the referendum to any cats:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHuiDD_oTk[/youtube]

This referendum, like the Royal Wedding, is nothing short of a disgraceful expensive extravagance that we can ill afford. We are holding it not for the good of the country but for political appeasement. It is probably costing millions that could have been better spent on public services.
I am loathe to support the Tory position and vote no, but that it is what I will do to ensure that Nick Clegg is banished to the political sidelines for ever more. We will certainly be having a party then!

Never thought I would agree with some of Roz's comments. I agree with the first part but not entirely the second.

By the way they estimate more Labour MPs are going to Vote No , rather than Yes , so not a Tory conspiracy.

@alexfeakes

Not sure where you get your information from, but New Zealand uses MMP (Mixed Member Proportional) which they decided to move to from FPTP after two referenda - the first was to choose voting systems and the second was to change from FPTP or not. Its entirely different to AV, as you get two votes - one for your local member and one for your party of choice.

In any case, many of you are comparing the potential situation after adopting AV as if it were the case today. The reality is that parties would change the way they are run and there would be a case for starting different parties, giving a more varied and (dare I say proportional) representative choice for the electorate.

I'm going to vote yes, not change for changes sake but change for good. AV is not perfect, but FPTP is not fit for purpose.

Yessssssss! (Or rather Nooooooo!) Result! We got him! Justice has been done! Clegg is no more! We need no longer live in fear! Buried ar sea! (We can't publish the photos, they're too gruesome)

(A bit premature, I know, but I wanted to be the first).

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/localg...-cuts.html

Apparently this AV exercise alone is costing us all £80 million.

What key services have had to be sacrificed for this to happen. We can't afford it. The Tories have spent this(your) money to retain their power base. Its shameful.
Interesting how the Tories have decided its ' Cleggs' election even though the Tories have effectively called it.

Well I think we exhausted the debate here and moved on to the existentialist discussion on how we could better spend money that we don't have. To put it into context £80m is very little when compared to the £6bn of cuts currently in place to reduce our £156bn budget deficit. One referendum in 30 years seems reasonable for democracy. Either way we have a vote tomorrow so the most important thing, as always, is to go out and vote.

I shall be voting 'Yes' to a fairer system of votes. A system supported by all of Lewisham's MPs Jim Dowd, Joan Ruddock, and Heidi Alexander (http://labouryes.org.uk/why-vote-yes/lab...endorsers/), although it is opposed by Steve Bullock - who is the only one currently elected using a form of AV.

Robin, I think you are a bit quick with the post-election analysis. Whichever way the vote goes I think the wider ramifications will be most interesting. But the vote really should not be about upsetting Cameron or Clegg, it should be about the right voting system for Britain.

That was the point I was trying to make, Michael, in my usual smarty-pants way.

I think you need to see this. It's the best video bout Av I've seen, it involves cats and it's funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiHuiDD_o...r_embedded

We're clearly spending it on todays referendum, Michael so unless its on Camerons credit card I conclude that its coming out of someone elses budget.

The government continues to spend beyond its income, so this deficit is money that is being borrowed from banks and money markets (obviously not on a credit card).

Just because you are happy with the unfairness of the current system, does not mean that there should not be a referendum. The majority of voters at the general election voted for parties that wanted to have a referendum on electoral reform (Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, etc). In fact the Labour Party manifesto was closest to what has actually happened, and I believe this is the manifesto that Roz supported at the last general election.