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East London Line

Author Message
Hils
Joined 05-04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, 04 January, 2006 - 08:25 pm:   

Here is an update re the East London Line

As we enter 2006, the project continues at pace. The project remains on schedule to be delivered by June 2010 in accordance with Olympic documentation.

Construction:

Repair and replacement of 21 bridges along the Kingsland Viaduct began in May 2005 and remains on schedule to finish in the autumn of 2006.

Status of contracts:

Bids for the £500M main works contract will be returned to the project on 31 March 2006. Once evaluation has taken place, the successful bidder is likely to be announced in the summer of 2006 and begin work in autumn 2006.

Proposals from four train manufacturers arrived today and will be evaluated to determine who will be chosen to provide Rolling Stock for the operational railway. A decision will be made at Easter 2006.

More specific details are available on the project website at www.ellp.co.uk
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 04 January, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   

Will the tube line use new track on run on the existing railway line? With a tube train every 8mins will the railway trains be required?
Cllrdavidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 09:15 am:   

There will still be trains to London Bridge, but four an hour rather than six. The ELL will provide a direct link to Jubilee, Central, District and Victoria Lines (the latter quite a way out, and the DLR), so it will make a real difference to the journey to central London. There will also be a link to the surface rail at Highbury. The line will also create easy links between East and Southeast London, which is the underlyin raison d'être for the project.

On another note, TfL have borrowed £450m from the European Development Bank, part of these funds will be used to improve all stations along the line by 2010, including Forest Hill. The station site is critical to the future of the area, so I think we all need to start thinking about what we want there, and how the aspirations of local residents can be reflected in what is finally built. With a project of this scale, which will be working to a tight timescale over the next four years it will be important to get in early. I think this will be a suitable subject for the next area forum to start with.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 10:29 am:   

So there will be fewer trains going to London Bridge every hour.
A worse service for me in future then.
Where will the east London Line tube trains go after New Cross Gate?
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 11:50 am:   

The route after New Cross goes:
Surrey Quays
Canada Water (one stop to Canary Wharf)
Rotherhithe
Wapping
Shadwell (for the DLR)
Whitechapel (Disrict and Hammersmith & City and possibly Crosslink to Stratford and Heathrow)
Shoreditch High Street
Hoxton
Haggerston
Dalston Junction
Canonbury
Highbury & Islington (Victoria Line)

This will give Forest Hill easy access to the Olympics and to Docklands.

Fewer trains to London Bridge will be a shame for those of us who use it every day, but by 2010 I might not be working in Central London as so many jobs are moving to Docklands. You should not assume it will be worse for you 4 years from now.

The money for improvements to Stations should be used to move Forest Hill station south of where it currently sits, into Perry Vale Car park, allowing for the straghtening of the South Circular.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 12:00 pm:   

I think it would be a major job to straighten the south circular. (The road could possibly go under the railway line through the current pedestrian underpass.)
The station could be enlarged by building over the railway lines. I think it would be wonderful to have an enlarged railway station with a cafe/waiting room etc..
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 12:25 pm:   

Why are we getting so excited about the ELL? We can get to most of these places already by changing at New Cross Gate (OK so the service isn't that regular but how often do I need to go to Shadwell unless I want to watch the Dogs (another obscure reference, readers, see www.imdb.com/title/tt0113375/)

After we lost daytime through trains to Charing Cross (that was a long time ago) it was quite exciting to have the Victoria link restored, and 6 trains an hour. The Jubilee line extension was also a bonus. Now connections to Thameslink during morning rush hour - that would be useful (it's all a conspiracy to get us to use the grotty Northern line). As would extension of the Croydon tramline, the DLR (past Lewisham) and the once talked about Victoria Line extension (Crystal Palace used to be mentioned).

So I can get to Canonbury by train but not Brixton.

Now longer term readers will of course know that I want the Crystal Palace High Level Line restored so I could get a train from Honor Oak (close to the famous Moor Park Tavern) through to the Bricklayers Arms.
Ophelia
Joined 18-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   

There's always the P4 to get to Brixton. A good, regular route. But I'm with you on restoring the old railway - walked along there through Sydenham Woods the other day and saw the boarded up tunnel.
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 01:05 pm:   

Any tube line is better than none. As well as providing improved transport links it will bring more people and Businesses to Forest Hill. House values will increase and anybody who is currently a property owner in Forest Hill will benefit from house values more appropriate to such a wonderful suburb of London.

It is true that the East London Line is probably the least useful line we could be connected to but at least they will run a little later at night and have regular connections to Crystal Palace, with links to Clapham and Victoria. Our connection to Canary Wharf and the DLR will be quicker than if the DLR came from Lewisham as it is not a particularly fast service.
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 01:07 pm:   

How quickly we would complain if the actually tried to build a railway through the local woodland!
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 01:20 pm:   

I thought the ELL would mean more trains per hour through Forest Hill to London Bridge.
What a mistakeatamaka!!
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 01:28 pm:   

You will be able to get the first train to New Cross Gate and change to the Southern trains that bypass Forest Hill, so it will be quicker to get to London Bridge if you don't mind changing at New Cross Gate. If you don't want to change you may need to wait an extra 5-10 minutes at the new improved station where the sun will always be shining.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 02:56 pm:   

That sounds better.
I often go to Charing Cross in the evening.
Presumably I will need to change at London Bridge.
Or will some trains go straight through to Charing Cross?
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 04:11 pm:   

What if the platforms were moved between the fast and slow lines thus giving Forest Hill 4 platforms? This would make it possible for trains on the fast line to Charing Cross to stop at the station.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 04:27 pm:   

I assume that they are on the fast (central) lines because they do not want to stop at Forest Hill.
However, any new development could take a reallignment of tracks and platforms into account.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 04:45 pm:   

Hopefully any development of Forest Hill railway station will take care of the large crack in the supporting wall of the railway bridge over Waldram Crescent!
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 05:27 pm:   

Ah, Michael, the Voice of the Evening Standard

Better links to Docklands. Property prices go up. Only the rich city and docklands workers can afford to live in SE23. Pubs shut down and chains of bars open. Sainsbury’s expands its deli counter and ready to eat meals. Perhaps a few galeries and trendy clothes shops open. Welcome to the new Hoxton (which of course we will be linked to)

Meanwhile the rest of us move to the affordable houses in the Thames Gateway. Well done Mr Prescot for engineering this!
Abi
Joined 09-09-2005
Posted on Thursday, 05 January, 2006 - 07:01 pm:   

How very perceptive.
Nice one Baggy!
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 09:38 am:   

How very nice to be appreciated Abi, suggest you and I go off into the sunset on our own personal thread.

See readers - I am the voice of reason.
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 11:53 am:   

Baggydave,
I don't really think there is a risk of you needing to sell your property on the posh estate and move to Thames Gateway because your property goes up in value.

I like the new Sainsburys, the renovated pubs and restaurants, comedy club, new clothes shops and all the other improvements we have seen in FH in the last year while you have been whinging on every thread about a pub that closed 10 years ago. Isn't it time to give that one a rest?
Ab3
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 01:13 pm:   

Michaal, I agree with your comments. Whilst I would probably rarely use the ELL, tapping into the Docklands market can only be good for Forest Hill. I would love to see Forest Hill as the next Hoxton. And as homeowners in the area, we can only stand to benefit from the inflow of rich bankers.
Deedee
Joined 08-12-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   

Here, here, I am all up for improving FH, everything helps. I also would not like to lose my friendly local pub but I don't think I will, we are a very close community (on the wrong side of the tracks) but also progressive, our pub landlord simply can't wait for the developments and neither can our friends who struggle to survive in the retail businesses on Dartmouth/London Road!
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 01:57 pm:   

Sorry- 4 trains per hour into London Bridge instead of 6? Were we consulted about this? This is really dreadful. Anyone can see that the passenger numbers on this line are increasing not decreasing, so how on earth is this system going to cope. It'll be like the DLR in the initial stages- all mouth and trousers, but not a lot of good to the people who live here. I would really like to know when this decision was made to cut these trains, and the rationale behind it.
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 02:00 pm:   

and sorry, but change at New Cross Gate for a fast train? Has anyone ever tried to board a train at New Cross Gate recently? Its pretty difficult. I had reason to do so several times recently and had to wait for the 4th train before I could get on. Have we really gone all this way towards the ELL to end up with a worst service that before?
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 02:53 pm:   

I hope there will be more than 4 overground trains per hour at rush hour. At present we have 8 trains per hour to London Bridge in the morning rush hour and halving this would be a problem, even with the additional 8 tube trains per hour.

Roz, You are probably right about changing at New Cross Gate being difficult. However, 8 trains an hour will go to Canada Water where we can change for the Jubilee Line for a 5 minute journey to London Bridge. This will be a better route for anybody continuing on from London Bridge by Jubilee line (or overground to Waterloo) and is likely to slightly reduce the demand for direct trains to London Bridge.
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 04:51 pm:   

I can tell when I am not wanted....

This is hardwork winding you lot up. Unfortunately I can't find a link to the Monty Python episode where they put up a sign when they are being ironic. Some of you my readers need me to put up a similar sign.

Well at least Roz has seen through the hype of the ELL.

If you take time to look through previous threads you will see that others (before it got silly and the webmaster kicked them out) actually joined in. I see it as Viz (when it was funny) send up of the tabloids such as the Daily Mail. Good to see that the latter is still being read in SE23.

Dunno why I'm actually posting on this one being a sandal wearing bearded vegan who prefers to cycle to work. Even the slow 185 bus is preferable to fighting the masses at London Bridge during rush hour and changing at New Cross would make things even worse.

And as for denegrating my local area again see plenty of previous threads such as "what's good about Forest Hill", Rockin in Forest Hill etc plus a dedicated one to the pub crawl of all the SE23 pubs -good and bad.

And irrespective of the number of trains they always seem to put on short ones on the odd occasion that I use them hence the 1 hour journey by bus on the odd occasion the bike's poorly.

Well at least the web site has got a little more interesting
Johnnyb7
Joined 29-03-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 05:58 pm:   

I agree with Roz, the bombshell dropped by the good councillor more in passing than anything else, is nothing short of a betrayal. Four trains an hour when we were led to believe that there would be a "metro-like" service every 6 minutes, is a real kick in the proverbials for commuters.

It may well be that lines have to be realigned anyway, because from New Cross Gate there is no obvious way for trains to get back onto the ELL.
Abi
Joined 09-09-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 06:57 pm:   

Tracks should not require re-aligning as FH used to have two additional platforms, nestled between the existing centre tracks, accessed from what is now the foot tunnel. But that goes back to a time when trains ran on time, tap water was safe to drink and children returned from school un-escorted.

Meanwhile .... Baggy don't go .... this forum needs your ascerbic wit for a little (sadly lacking) levity.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 08:03 pm:   

Be positive...you'll soon be able to purchase an oyster card at Forest Hill, at a cost of £450M.

DLR at Lewisham it was said would attract people to the area, what seems to happen in the morning is commuters from Kent merely use Lewisham as an interchange for the DLR and the reverse in the evening.

I know people are focused on SE23, and a train every 5mins should make FH attractive but look at other stations on the line and the affect the ELL may have on travel patterns from those areas.

By the way if more people want to live in FH where will they live; is their room for new housing?
Cllrdavidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
Posted on Friday, 06 January, 2006 - 09:04 pm:   

I don't think the proposed schedule changes to the London Bridge service can be seen as a betrayal. There will be more trains from Forest Hill than at present. There will be easier connections to Central, Jubilee, District, and North London rail lines lines. There will be easier access to Docklands, the Thames Gateway, Victoria via Crystal Palace and more trains to Croydon, which is an important employment centre and transport hub. There will clearly be a need to ensure that the rush hour London Bridge service is adequate, but apart from those travelling to within walking distance of London Bridge, there will be other routes available with easier interchange. I'm not sure when the proposed schedules first came into the public domain, but it's not recently.

If this is a 'betrayal', I would like to be betrayed as often as possible, because it doesn't seem such a bad deal to me.

Having said that, it will be important to keep in contact with TfL on the issues raised, and I will be writing to them (as will others) on the subject of Oyster cards and ticketing, and rush hour frequency to London Bridge.

I don't agree with Lone Ranger's point that the DLR has had little effect on the Lewisham area. Many people now come over from North of the River to shop in Lewisham, and this has had a beneficial effect on trading levels. This growth has attracted interest, and we will soon see the start of the Lewisham Renaissance project which will bring hundreds of millions of pounds into the area.

Lone Ranger is right to point to the other stations on the ELL. Places like Penge and Anerley will perhaps benefit proportionately more than us, as they will have a usable rail service off peak rather than the half hourly service they now 'enjoy'.

There is some room for new housing in Forest Hill, and much has already been provided one way and another, perhaps unnoticed - for example, the Council has persuaded landlords on Dartmouth Road and London Road to bring back into use almost all the flats over the shops. The Crown Graphics development will start soon, and there will be a few more in Forest Hill centre. However, there is clearly a limit to numbers of new properties that can be provided.

I don't think population increase is the main point, however. The ELL will open employment opportunities to those already living here. For example, skilled and semi-skilled workers will have easier access to the employment which will be available in the Thames corridor.
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Saturday, 07 January, 2006 - 08:44 am:   

As mentioned before, I would like to see the research and consultation that has led to these decisions being made to reduce the direct service. There is a great deal of assumption here about travel patterns and what current commuters need and want. Perhaps Cllr Whiting could refer us to this? Things move on, and what was relevant before may not be relevant now. It would be good if someone could do some research with existing commuters to see where they actually go and what they want.

I am aware that a great deal of people commute to Victoria and further west. I often do this and find the evening trains extremely useful. However inexplicably there are no morning trains there until after 9am. Would this not bring considerable immediate relief to current conditions?

As far as I am concerned,and from what I can see, the biggest relationship in commuting terms is still access to and from London Bridge and Charing Cross, and the northern line, and there is great dependency on these routes being kept as accessible as possible. This issue about opening up to the Gateway appears to be just conjecture and social engineering, not dealing with an existing demand. 'Fraid I would not be enamoured about changing at Canada Water for a train to LB as the Jubilee line is always fraught with problems.

Cllr Whiting states that ''but apart from those travelling to within walking distance of London Bridge, there will be other routes available with easier interchange''. Not so for the northern line though, which itself leads to the major transport nodes.

Granted that this may open up opportunities in the Thames Corridor, but these areas are not without an adequate share of semi skilled workers so employment prospects and reasons to travel are not guaranteed. There is a great deal of unemployment there with the loss of Ford.


I work in Camden - there has been reference to improving links to the north London line, but as anyone in my workplace knows, this line is the complete pits. Dirty, overcrowded, and hardly ever running. The idea of being forced onto this by a paper exercise is just frightening.

The whole issue for me here is the emphasis on making our journeys more convoluted under the auspices of being faster. The more breaks in the chain, the greater likelihood of problems arising. Suburb to centre, that is what we need, and what is recognised by most transport planning theory.

In respect of Oyster cards, TFl have no control over their becoming available in Forest Hill- the decision is down to the various franchises who run suburban services in each case- because of their temporary nature they are not willing and able to invest the millions that is required to issue Oyster. They have made this clear to Tfl and central Government yonks before Oyster was introduced. Due to this squabbling we commuters lose out.

As the Mayor says, ' Lets talk' and get the service we really want and need.
Rob
Joined 23-01-2003
Posted on Saturday, 07 January, 2006 - 10:18 am:   

Roz, you make some very valid points. In particular, I have always been very frustrated at the lack of Victoria service before 9am. I campaigned for a long time to extend this service at weekends. Cllr Whiting - perhaps you could campaign on our behalf to make this happen on weekdays before 9am.

Regarding the ELL, the main benefit is that it puts Forest Hill on the map. Literally. It will bring much needed investment into the area and support existing businesses, many of which continue to struggle.

The reduced service is undoubtedly an issue. Fewer trains to London Bridge isn't an ideal solution. But, as Michael rightly notes, many of those commuters who used to get the LB train will instead get the tube to Canada Water and Jubilee Line into north London. This means that people like Roz who need to catch the LB train may have a chance of getting a seat. Surely not a bad thing.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Sunday, 08 January, 2006 - 07:10 pm:   

I find the current train schedule of 6 trains to London Bridge per hour very good. It means that I do not have long to wait for a train as they arrive approximately every 10 minutes.
According to the timetable there is currently one train per day to Charing Cross! It is scheduled for approximately 7.24 p.m.. I have never caught it as I usually get to the station with a few minutes to spare and catch the earlier train to London Bridge.
I suppose the big advantage for us of the ELL will be easy access to Canary Wharf and the financial services (hopefully well-paid) jobs.
This may cause local employers to raise their salaries to retain staff.
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 08:21 am:   

If I am correct we are talking about the situation many years down the track ( no pun intended ).
Whose knows what any of us will be doing or where we will be working then. Perhaps overall patterns will change with time.
When I started commuting from Syd in 66 nearly everybody went to City or to Charing Cross.Times are a changing.
I drive now but still use the trains once or twice a week often to Croydon and the service is usually very good.
Re Octapus cards where in SE 23 can one purchase them
I tried 3 shops with no success.
Now buses are GBP 1.50 I need a mortgage before travelling.But that is down to our fuehrer.
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 09:07 am:   

A list of shops in SE23 that should be able to sell pre-pay Oyster tickets is available at http://www.tfl-ticketlocator.co.uk/results.asp?ara ID=SE23&srcBln=2
I hope this helps Brian and others.
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 09:17 am:   

Hmm people have short memories! Any remember how much buses were back in 1999 before Ken reduced the fares...?
All this cynicism regarding the East London Line is a bit depressing too. Yes, there will (almost inevitably) be a reduction of service to London Bridge, but London Bridge just can't cope, eithwer with the number of overground train movements or with the number of people who are deposited there from SE London / Sussex / Kent and then try to pile onto the Northern Line... which as the only tube line making much penetration south of the river is already full to gunwhales.
The idea of the ELL is to bypass all this and plonk you on westbound Jubilee (Canada Water) or District/H&C (Whitehapel) or Vic (Highbury, eventually) trains, which should should work quite well for many people. For those for whom it doesn't...you still have the London Bridge train.
Just to stir things up further, you do realise that ELL will not be part of the London Underground network but is to be transferred to National Rail...
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 09:55 am:   

If I use the underground I usually get on the Jubilee line at London Bridge. It is always packed westbound in the evening!
There seems to be no advantage in connecting with the Jubilee line at Canada Water.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 10:36 am:   

I would think the number of people going to Lewisham to shop is probably miniscule.

My partner was at Lewisham (DLR) last Friday evening. She says everytime a train arrived it was crowded and the vast majority of passengers transfered to the national rail station.

So ELL tube line isn't going to be a tube line, and therefore £450m won't buy an Oyster card machine.

Re London Bridge, am I cynical in thinking the recent developments of SE1 is an attempt to exploit the need by national rail to expand the number of tracks to Charing Cross?

By the way there were/are plans to shunt many Charing Cross bound trains to Cannon Street, a dumb idea.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 10:39 am:   

Oops that should be :- I would think the number of people from north of the river going to Lewisham (via DLR) to shop is probably miniscule.
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 10:40 am:   

Just to fill in some background. The East London Line has been mooted for around 10 years now and apart from a lengthy legal hitch was due to be up and running by 2005/6. We could all by now be participating in a whole new travel experience!

From 2010 we are promised 4 trains an hour to London Bridge on the existing East Croydon and Victoria routes; and on the ELL there will be 4 trains an hour to and from West Croydon and 4 to and from Crystal Palace.

When the Jubilee line opened at London Bridge just 6 years ago our travel patterns changed - the West End was suddenly only 40 minutes away and we adapted to new travel patterns very quickly.

Six trains per hour to the two Croydons will give this area good access to Tramlink, something I, personally, am looking forward to.

A new station at Surrey Canal will, when Stage Two of the ELL is completed (thought to be about 2014), give us easy access to Clapham Junction.

It is not that long ago that there were only four trains an hour to London Bridge/ Charing Cross. Most of us regret the loss the direct Charing X train - however a cancelled train did mean a hour hour wait - remember?.

It is a personal opinion but I am looking forward to the opportunities that the new line will open up.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 11:19 am:   

The problem with the DLR at Lewisham is its location. I understand that when it first opened lots of passengers came, took a look and went home. It is too difficult to access the shops across several roads/roundabouts from the DLR station. So I think a redevelopment is proposed. Of course, it does not help that the Army & Navy department store closed and became a police station.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   

Pattrembath,
If there were 4 trains an hour surely a cancelled train would mean a half hour wait.
I used to use Catford Bridge station with 4 trains an hour to Charing Cross, but changed to Forest Hill when I found there are 6 trains an hour to London. It is not difficult to change at London Bridge and catch the next train to Charing Cross (from platform 6).
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   

Factoid: Local bus fares---
1995 = 50p
1997 = 50p
1999 = 60p
2000 = 70p
2006 = £1.50
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   

Sherwood

You are right; I thought I had proof read my offering. With four trains an hour a train cancellation did mean a half hour wait.
Cllrdavidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 01:31 pm:   

Though when I first moved into Forest Hill, it was a half hour service to London Bridge off peak. There were no through trains to Charing Cross ever, and no Victoria service. In those days, cancellation did mean a half hour wait (and they did happen).

I think LoneRanger is leaning over backwards to find things to be negative about.

Firstly, Slough Estates did some survey work a couple of years after the DLR was opened, and found that a significant level of shoppers were from across the river - I understand it was over 10%, which is not miniscule.

Secondly, regarding overcrowding on the DLR, TfL have funding and the necessary consents to improve the DLR service to Lewisham from two to three car units, thus increasing capacity by 50%. Work is planned to start in 2007 for completion in 2009. This should ease the overcrowding problem.

Thirdly, ELL will not be a London Underground line, but it will be Transport for London's responsibility. It is unlikely that users will not benefit from any arrangement which applies to other TfL services, including Oyster. This, of course, assumes that the problem with National Rail on Oyster will remain unsolved by 2010, which is also unlikely.

Fourthly, you appear to be putting a negative interpretation on National Rail's efforts to increase the efficiency of London Bridge. Perhaps they are just trying to create a better service with greater reliability and punctuality.
Cllrdavidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 03:46 pm:   

Though when I first moved into Forest Hill, it was a half hour service to London Bridge off peak. There were no through trains to Charing Cross ever, and no Victoria service. In those days, cancellation did mean a half hour wait (and they did happen).

I think LoneRanger is leaning over backwards to find things to be negative about.

Firstly, Slough Estates did some survey work a couple of years after the DLR was opened, and found that a significant level of shoppers were from across the river - I understand it was over 10%, which is not miniscule.

Secondly, regarding overcrowding on the DLR, TfL have funding and the necessary consents to improve the DLR service to Lewisham from two to three car units, thus increasing capacity by 50%. Work is planned to start in 2007 for completion in 2009. This should ease the overcrowding problem.

Thirdly, ELL will not be a London Underground line, but it will be Transport for London's responsibility. It is unlikely that users will not benefit from any arrangement which applies to other TfL services, including Oyster. This, of course, assumes that the problem with National Rail on Oyster will remain unsolved by 2010, which is also unlikely.

Fourthly, you appear to be putting a negative interpretation on National Rail's efforts to increase the efficiency of London Bridge. Perhaps they are just trying to create a better service with greater reliability and punctuality.
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   

Dear Councillor - a different opinion doesn't necessarily mean a negative one. I think Lone Ranger is expressing valid concerns.
I'm glad we still have the freedom to disagree.
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
Posted on Monday, 09 January, 2006 - 06:46 pm:   

£1.50 for the bus? £1.50?? ken brought it down to 70p with a promise that it would go down to 40p (70p in town). OK so he didn't get the grant he wanted. £1.50, I don't Victor Meldrew believe it.

And whilst I am in a Victor Meldrew mood, what about the lack of integration. Can get reduced fares and returns on the train, but not on buses and underground. Can change at no addtional cost on tube and train but not on the bus. Some European countries simply by a ticket between zones and then free to use whatever form of public transport (Time limited tickets). Baggy Dave remembers being in Budapest ten years ago where they had nodes (two or more forms of transport met) and trolley buses and trams as well as the other three modess of transport.
That's central planning for you.

But to be positive, 4 trains from town of an evening = good, through trains to Victoria including rush hour = good (they sort of had these years ago).

And back to the old days when I first came down here from the high altitudes it was 40p in central London for the tube. On that rate it would now be a fiver for a beer so the DA prices aren't so bad after all.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 12:27 am:   

I described trains every 5mins as good for Forest Hill; that I looked forward to using an Oyster card; suggested increasing the number of platforms so more trains stop at Forest Hill. Pointed out the need to look in both directions, Croydon as well as London. Not sure how that is regarded as being negative.

It was the Cllr. who pointed out the number of national trains would be reduced and created doubts about the use of Oyster cards. Issues on which others commented.

The Cllr. regards the number of shoppers from the north of London significant, I do not. At the present time I'm not aware of hordes of people getting off the DLR to go shopping at Lewisham.

I reported the DLR was crowded (not overcrowded) to confirm what I described previously was correct. That large numbers of travellers don't terminate their rail journey at Lewisham. That improvements can have unexpected consequences.
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   

"Factoid: Local bus fares---
1995 = 50p
1997 = 50p
1999 = 60p
2000 = 70p
2006 = £1.50"
.
I used to live in the E End and tickets into town were over a pound (or pahnd) in 1999.
.
"When the Jubilee line opened at London Bridge just 6 years ago our travel patterns changed - the West End was suddenly only 40 minutes away and we adapted to new travel patterns very quickly"
.
True - but only 20 mins to the W End on direct CX trains!
.
"Re London Bridge, am I cynical in thinking the recent developments of SE1 is an attempt to exploit the need by national rail to expand the number of tracks to Charing Cross?"
.
No. They desperately need more tracks to Charing Cross and still hope to build a viaduct over Borough High St. The tightness of the curve and the restriction on number of movements due to having very few tracks is why we don't get much of a CX service and why it takes so long between CX and London Bridge.
.
Personally, I am looking forward to 12 trains an hour and magically appearing on the London transport map (and in people's consciousness - no more "No, that's Forest Gate - near Dulwich!") where "here be dragons" is more the case these days.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 04:02 pm:   

Hello Hilltopgeneral,
Sorting out the tracks between London Bridge & Charing Cross would be great. I wondered if the commercial property owners below were making improvements to get a better price from the railways.
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 04:57 pm:   

Not quite sure how the compulsory purchase process works to be honest... There was a spanner thrown in the works by Borough Market though. Good to know that we have our priorities straight and that the sale of goats cheese - which couldn't possibly take place in any other location - is rightly favoured over the transport needs of one quarter of the city and two whole outlying counties.
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 05:36 pm:   

Hilltopg - Borough Market is, as far as I know, still a working London market for a lot of restaurants in London, in exactly the same way that Billingsgate and Smithfield are). The market you and I see on the weekend is what happens after the "real market" has finished trading before the rest of us are out of our beds.

Equally, while I agree that improvements need to made to the link between CX and LB we should never be in a rush to bulldoze London history.
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   

I am still waiting for someone to produce the research evidence that concludes that reducing the Forest Hill/London Bridge service and increasing links elsewhere is what people want and need, and that it reflects the prevailing trend of commuting. Where is it? Someone must have some. Cllr Whiting, please assist.
It is not I hope just a mechanism to merely reduce pressure on London Bridge ie we have to get to the same place by , as I said earlier, a more convoluted and unpleasant route. The improvement to the Victoria route is a sure fire way of reducing pressure on LB. I see many Forest Hill faces getting these trains home in the evening, it is a diabolical conundrum that they cannot get to work the same way.
This ELL is costing us a fortune. Don't tell me all this was decided without any firm rational analysis. Lets have it please and have no more nonsense, or I'll start posting about bra fitting on this thread as a protest.
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 10 January, 2006 - 07:26 pm:   

I'm not too happy about fewer rail services to LB. I agree the ELL will help to put us on the map but why does there have to be a sting in the tail? Everyone I know in Forest Hill relies on a fast direct service to LB for connections to central London. I can't see Lewisham being transformed into a shopping paradise favoured by hoards of people North of the river either. I'm sure most people go to central London for decent shopping or to out of town centres like Lakeside.
Sorry Lewisham! But I'm just being realistic.
Domc
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 08:22 am:   

Suggest people should try and contact the Project Public Liaison Manager: Helen Robinson 0800 587 2441 for information about the East London Line Project as her job is to inform the public and answer their queries. All available on their website.
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 09:32 am:   

-I believe Borough Market has been extended in the relatively recent past and that what look like historic columns etc have in some cases been salvaged from elsewhere - ?
-Rest assured that the case for the ELL has been studied in some depth. This information is not too difficult to unearth. There is no need totask Cllr Whiting with doing this!
-The ELL is not costing a fortune - as infrastructure projects go it is peanuts, so should have been done ages ago.
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 10:54 am:   

The real reason for ELL coming to Forest Hill it is not really about providing better transport links for the people of South London but convincing the Olympic committee that there are good transport links to East London. If we had not got the olympics it is perfectly possible that we would not get the East London Line either.

The extension to the South of New Cross Gate is a relatively cheap project in terms of transport strategy as it uses existing lines. The disadvantage is clearly less trains to London Bridge, but this is compensated in my opinion by easier access to Victoria, Waterloo, Westminster, Canary Wharf, Clapham, Crystal Palace, and East London.

We will have 12 rather than 6 trains per hour through Forest Hill, but other tube lines have more than this (both branches of the Northern Line have 16 per hour). It should be that there is spare capacity for some extra London Bridge trains, at least during peak hours.
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 01:57 pm:   

At risk of complicating the whole issue...

London Bridge will be a good place to avoid if/when the Thameslink 2000 (or whatever the new name is) gets the go ahead.

Thameslink will connect at New Cross, but LB will be substantially disrupted when the new through lines are built.

Campaigning for Thameslink to call at FH would be a worthwhile activity - I don't think it is planned to at present.

Les.
Scipio
Joined 08-05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 02:57 pm:   

Come on, Councillor Whiting! If you have time to contribute to the Walking thread, please answer the points raised by Roz.
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 03:58 pm:   

Scipio - Is stalking allowed on this forum?

I think Roz's request is unreasonable - everyone knows London Bridge (and Victoria, etc etc) is overloaded in the peaks - it has been for years and is getting worse.

Spreading the load sounds sensible to me, provided (decent, and half-hourly in the peak is not decent) options are provided for people who must travel to SE1.

Les.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 06:19 pm:   

To a committee investigating overcrowding a Mr. Cox of Southern Railways said it would eliminate the problem within a few years....that was in the 1920's.

Mr. Cox also suggested passengers like standing because they aren't prepared to wait for the next train, a committee member pointed the next train was likely to be crowded as well.

Also found plans to extend the tube to south east London in a 1920's newspaper.
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 09:51 pm:   

Les, I asked to see some evidence for what appeared to be assumptions as to the best transport strategy. I fail to see how this could be considered unreasonable. What is unreasonable is that we are still all waiting on the answer.
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 11 January, 2006 - 09:54 pm:   

... and Cllr Whiting, we are also patiently waiting for that other bit of news you promised us just before Christmas. I may have to let the cat out of the bag if we don;t hear from you soon.!!! You have one week...
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 08:16 am:   

Roz
Sounds very interesting.
Nothing to do with pidgeons is it. Clr Susan Wise was on radio london this morning saying they are going to evict a lady in Bellingham for feeding the pests.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 09:39 am:   

Come on. Don't keep us in suspense. Spill the beans!
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 01:04 pm:   

I can't as I made a promise. One week...
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 01:40 pm:   

Roz,
6 days to go then.
Can you give me the reference for Cllr Whiting's promise, please?
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 07:15 pm:   

How do you mean reference? I can honestly say it has nothing to do with pigeons or Bellingham.
I may be able to give away one clue per day, starting tomorrow....
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 12 January, 2006 - 10:37 pm:   

Roz,
I assumed that Cllr Whiting had made a promise somewhere on this forum.
I look forward to the clues.
Hopefully, this will not end Cllr Whiting's political career in the same way that Charles Kennedy's finished last week!
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, 24 January, 2006 - 09:53 pm:   

Trains do go to Charing Cross. I caught one last week. They seem to start at 19.24 and are every half hour. It would be nice if the 4 trains an hour could go directly to Charing Cross all day.
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, 25 January, 2006 - 09:21 am:   

This weeks Mercury has the headline "No station upgrades due before Olympics". From previous discussions I thought Forest Hill station was to be upgraded as part of the East London Line funding but according to the article that isn't the case.
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
Posted on Thursday, 26 January, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   

The railway station at New Cross Gate appears to already have an opening in the bridge behind the underground train railway line. Therefore, it would seem to be a simple matter to connect the underground up with the existing railway tracks. Or am I wrong on this?
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
Posted on Friday, 27 January, 2006 - 09:42 am:   

No, I think that's the idea - not certain though as they want to do quite a bit of messing round with the tracks by Surrey Canal Road, so it's possible the connection will be there.


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