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Muggings in SE23

Author Message
Dave
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 23 November, 2004 - 03:21 pm:   

Has anyone noticed that things seem to have got dodgier in Honor Oak of late - a friend on mine got mugged a week or so ago!

Hopefully this was a one off
C
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 23 November, 2004 - 11:58 pm:   

I've noticed dodgier goings on in the last year since the number of derelict shops in Dartmouth Road has increased. A few weeks ago I saw a prostitute openly solicit for trade in broad daylight near Forest Hill pools. That's something I've not seen before round here. Councillors please note: if an area is allowed to become run down - you tend to get more anti-social behaviour.
Also noticed groups of people begging more openly at Forest Hill station. They work in groups of two and three and are getting pushier.
PVP
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 24 November, 2004 - 05:51 pm:   

There was also a mugging on Perry Vale recently. Does anyone know anything about that?
Michelle
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 24 November, 2004 - 06:03 pm:   

Where on Perry Vale and When?
I live on P V and don`t know anything about this.
Georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 10:03 am:   

It occurred, according to the police sign, at about midnight last wednesday evening. It happened just beyond Vale Lodge, not far from the station. Apparently the perpetrators were two male youths and the victim a male. The sign is probably still there if you want further information.
I don't think, however, that we should blow all of this out of proportion. These things occur all over London, all the time. It is just that we are better informed because fortunately we have this forum. I would suggest that we all be as vigilant as possible but I still consider Forest Hill to be a safe and pleasant place to live. I would welcome more thoughts on this.
sid
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 02:22 pm:   

I've lived in the area for 20 years and its always been fine until a year or so ago.I work in Camden Town and after enduring the daily grind of the junkies, beggars and problems up here its usually very nice to come home to Forest Hill. HOWEVER in the past few months I have felt a bit edgy around the station area even at dusk/ early evening. There are a lot of beggars here and funny things going on around the cashpoints, similar to Camden Town. Also some dodgy activity outside the chip shop/minimart near the launderette, and outside the former PO Sorting Office in Devonshire Road-I saw a sign up for a public meeting with the police re security so it would be good if people went to this. Yes, its better here, but I am also aware of an increase in undesirable activity. I understood from a local councillor that this was because of a police crackdown in Camberwell and Brixton which has relocated the problem to SE23.
Michelle
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 02:22 pm:   

The one in FH - was by two white kids who mugged a woman coming homw from work! When they realised they werent going to get her bag they ran off. The most alarming thing was that someone saw all this happen and did not intervene. I think that is even more dispicable than the mugging itself.

I think the area is generally getting worse. On my journey homw from the station I often have to walk past groups of kids hanging around on the streets causing trouble. Also last Friday when I was walking home with a friend we interevened to stop two kids beating up a third kid over teh bonnet of someones car.

I have definately seem a deterioration in the area.
Baggiedave
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 03:16 pm:   

Thought the gentrification of Brixton led to more unsavoury elements, and the local call girls, moving up the hill to Streatham. Mind you now Brixton's lost it's cutting edge/front line image, not as exciting as it once was (Allbarone anyone?). Correct me if I am wrong but thought the successful gangsters (ie wealthy) moved to the 'better' parts of Sydenham (on their way to leafy Bromley no doubt).

As regards to trouble saw plenty of it (brawls) when I used to frequent Streatham and less so around Sydenham, nowt in Forest Hill but perhaps I don't get out enough nowadays. For more irreverent comments see the Moor Park Tavery thread which now has a life of its own

And finally think the police policy is to put out those yellow signs calling for information more regularly than they used to hence we all feel more vulnerable than we used to. Recall cycling past various yellow signs in Peckham and Camberwell about attempted hijacking and armed robberies but not bumped into one yet. Sure Toffee Jim is an expert on all of this.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 05:00 pm:   

Have to agree with baggy (even tho I think he's a very bad man for being so nasty to TJ) - Yes, the rozzers probably do big up the fear of crime so they get loads of money and can go out and buy themselves a nice new helecopter!

It does seem kind of strange that the people who are supposed to be getting rid of crime have an inherent reason for letting it continue! Hmmm what to do!

Oh, and I for one don't neccessarily think that crime is all that bad round these parts - considering its not the most affluent area!

I'll probably get mugged now!
ToffeeJim
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 05:55 pm:   

The government will tell you Anti-Social Behaviour Orders are the answer. Personally I just want to know if they're applicable online.
ExpatRich
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 06:23 pm:   

Ahem, sorry to interupt , but hasnt anyone told you guys?

The country's gone to the dogs....in fact it went years ago
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 25 November, 2004 - 07:03 pm:   

Thanks for letting us in on that.

I blame Thatcher - this country started going downhill when she took free milk away from the nation's school children.
Honest SE23er....
Joined N/A
Posted on Saturday, 27 November, 2004 - 09:21 pm:   

It'll be interesting to see what the councillors have to say on this topic...

They generally only see it fit to answer on topics that do not question/threaten their jobs...
Mike
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 28 November, 2004 - 09:58 pm:   

It's good that the police make us more aware. We do need to be more vigilant etc etc... Problem is, where does our vigilance get us? The police don't seem to have time to get involved and sort out the root causes.

So, we generally seem to feel more fear etc etc... The government has detailed recently that their efforts to help this aspect of policing/society has failed. I'm torn between trying not to let this bother me as I go about my business and wanting to 'keep myself safe' using other means...
ToffeeJim
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 01 December, 2004 - 01:21 pm:   

Yes we all need to be vigilant. And we also need to share information with other community members to promote our own safety. This thread already details the anti-social behaviour of beggars, kids and even an isolated case of street prostitution.

I'm especially disturbed therefore to read about the instituting of organised anti-social behaviour by the notorious local eccentric BaggieDave (see Moor Park Tavern thread). I understand this will be some sort of love-in involving a loose coalition of direct-action agitators, shouting vegan cyclists, call-girls, naturist right-to-roamers and assorted general sandal wearers.

This degenerates 'festival' will certainly have a negative effect on the house prices and freedom of movement to those living on Forest Hill's 'poshest' estate. It could also cause significant distress to any passing 4x4's undertaking innocent school runs. I urge you all to stay away from this blot onthe landscape and instead spend the day giving your vote of confidence to alternate local facilities - such as any of the pubs in SE23 that are actually still open!
kevin
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 02 December, 2004 - 01:44 pm:   

for practicle crime prevention advice and community enhancement projects which can lead to a safer community

www.westminster.gov.uk/crimeprevention

Join Londons fatest growing Virtual Watch.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 03 December, 2004 - 03:15 pm:   

fat-est?

I spose there are more fast food joints in westminster than the london average!
Al
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 03 December, 2004 - 10:30 pm:   

And I suppose CT has never once produced a typo. Glad you're so interested in the serious issues.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 06 December, 2004 - 12:46 pm:   

Sorry Al - couldn't resist!
danny263
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 12 December, 2004 - 01:39 am:   

Have to say I'm more careful walking home late a night down perry vale after the mugging, but daytimes I've seen alot more police on the beat than usual, shame its only daytimes though!
Jay
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 12 December, 2004 - 08:07 pm:   

I totally agree. I'm making much more use of the cab company, especially when late. Sad isn't it. The bus service is too infrequent to bother with. There are many people that walk in that direction, I can't understand why it's so infrequent. The other thing that bothers me is that there is no timer on the stops to let you know how long the next bus is going to be. Is this something that bothers other people too?
PVP
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 12:18 pm:   

Bus timers - absolutely essential. I walk 10 mins up Perry Vale every morning and evening. I suppose at least it keeps me fit!
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 12:48 pm:   

I thought those bus timers didn't actually work! Aren't they just a read out of a pre-programmed timetable (like the ones that used to be on the shelter) rather than an indication of where the bus actually is? I guess they'd work if buses kept to timetables but I think we all know they don't.

Perry vale is grim though
georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 12:57 pm:   

CT, why do you think Perry Vale is grim? I have seen much worse!
Les
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 02:19 pm:   

CT,

The bus info system uses either roadside sensors or GPS to know where the buses are and their ETA.

I agree a readout of the timetable would be rubbish!

Les.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 02:48 pm:   

Georgina - Perry vale seems to me just about the worst bit of FH. The Industrial estate aesthetic doesn't really do much for me - nor does empty rat infested sites. But apart from that I guess it's ok. Have seen worse too if I'm honest.

Les - I thought the gps thing was supposed to be what happens but they couldnt make it work - one of the two is truth - the other is probably an urban myth!
georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 03:27 pm:   

CT - I disagree actually. There is a nice parade of shops on Perry Vale which actually seem to be flourishing, and yes there is alot of mixed housing but that is also the case in many other parts of FH. Call me an optimist!
Hilltop General
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 03:39 pm:   

An optimist
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 04:05 pm:   

Georgina, where is this nice parade of shops that seem to be flourishing? I must have missed them - if it's the parade I think you're referring to, there's an offie, a kebab shop, a v. poor sandwich place and a closed down post office.
Georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 04:31 pm:   

ok - well, my perception is different then. I see a great local (friendly) dry cleaners, an excellent medical centre, a useful offie & former post office shop, and a nice antiques shop. I doubt I've convinced you but, hey, thats my tuppence worth.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 04:38 pm:   

Jack - I think she's refering to the little parade of shops near the station. the one with a boarded up video shop, a closed down curtain shop, an offie with a sign in the window saying business for sale, a newly opened restaurant that I've only ever seen 1 person in that doesn't work there!

Hardly thriving is it? Needs a bit of a kick up the backside that area - mind you it is separated from the main down by a really nasty little subway so I guess it's doing ok really
Georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 04:51 pm:   

Ct - just one comment. The new restaurant on the parade of shops I WASN'T referring to - you have to actually go inside to see people eating there. You've been looking in the the entrance way where they do the takeaway orderings. You should try it. Food is delicious.
ToffeeJim
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 05:04 pm:   

CT - you must be one of those ones off the posh estate where all the pubs have been shut down. That end of Perry Vale isn't exactly picture postcard but it has a good selection of proper local shops unlike London Road, stifled by a large supermarket and mutli-national fast food chains. The Perry Vale shops have two newly opened restaurants. Give them a chance will you. Or would you prefer to see another chain outlet open up there? The video shop was still open last time I looked - another that's survived in spite of two big chain video shops opening up in swift succession on the other side of the "nasty little subway". The road also has a sports shop that's survived for years (and has just had its front revamped) and a very friendly local computer supply and repair shop. To top it all a Co-op has opened just across the way - another boon for those of us who like our products just a tad less multi-national. Perhaps one of the reasons why the Perry Vale shops are doing ok compared to the acres of boarded up shops in London Road is that good numbers of the large proportion of SE23 who live "separated from the main" part of FH are happy to give them their support. And for ideas on how to help develop that part of FH further see my recent entry on the Forset Hill regeneration thread. Honestly CT anyone would think you were BaggieDave in disguise!
Georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 05:07 pm:   

Thank you very much ToffeeJim. Exactly. We should all be supporting our local facilities. And also within that parade, there is an extremely friendly white goods/electrical items shop.
Georgina
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 05:07 pm:   

Thank you very much ToffeeJim. Exactly. We should all be supporting our local facilities. And also within that parade, there is an extremely friendly white goods/electrical items shop.
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 05:42 pm:   

Blimey, it seems that you're not allowed to critise local facilities and the state of Perry Vale without being accused of being 'off the posh estate'. Where exactly is this posh estate, TJ, that you seem so obsessed with?
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 09:18 pm:   

CT, the parade of shops that Georgina is referring to is not great, but it is far better than the one near the station that you are talking about. Being from the 'posh estate', I have to agree with you - the station end of Perry Vale is grim - you know a place leaves a lot to be desired when the best someone can say about it is that it has a Co-op and a sports shop that's just had its front revamped.
James
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 13 December, 2004 - 10:38 pm:   

From reading some of these messages I'm starting to think there must be an undiscovered part of Forest Hill that rivals the west end for shopping and dining facilities. Seems odd to talk about areas of forest hill being grim when so many people are wanting the regeneration in the town. Maybe if you supported the local businesses instead of putting them down the area will improve. I know the stretch of shops Georgina was referring to which includes the usual decent local facilities plus a few different shops including an interior design store and an antiques shop.
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 09:07 am:   

I support a number of the businesses that have been mentioned in this thread. However, it's a two way street and I think that CT was making a valid point about the state of the station end of Perry Vale. The stretch of shops that Georgina was referring to is decent enough - I live just around the corner from them and use a number of them on a regular basis. But the parade that CT is talking about is a dump and there's no point pretending otherwise.
Rob
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 09:47 am:   

The shops near the station definitely need a revamp. There are a few very good shops on that row, in particular the sports and carpet shops. The curry house also appears to be a welcome addition; they have made a real effort and I wish them every success.

Unfortunately the tone is set by the other remaining shops and the area opposite the station. I complained to the Mayor about this area in early Oct and have subsequently received a letter from the head of regeneration promising change. Interestingly, I noticed a couple of weeks later that they boarded up that area; presumably to stop fly-tippers and other anti-social behaviour. Does anyone know if the Council et al intend to do anything with this site?

I suggest that everyone who has written on this strand takes responsibility to contact Lewisham's regeneration team to ask them for:

1) More grants to improve shop fronts on Perry Rise/Vale
2) Fewer planning applications granted for roll-down shutters; it makes the place look untidy and unwelcoming
3) An immediate improvement to the east side of the station, including the sites adjoining and opposite the platform 2 exit

Letters can and do make a difference. My email is on its way...
ToffeeJim
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 02:47 pm:   

Excellent idea Rob

Jack - sorry to disappoint you but I'm afraid you don't qualify as being from the posh estate: i.e. one where they've shut all the pubs down. It's not such a great place to be anyway. Too much danger of being harangued by notorious shouting vegan cyclists.

But I am digressing. Calling the parade on Perry Vale a dump is a bit negative isn't it? How about a few constructive suggestions?
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 03:10 pm:   

TJ - damn, I was hoping to qualify as one of the people from the posh estate. Oh well...

I did make a few constructive comments re. the other parade of shops in Perry Vale. I haven't added anything else as I felt that Rob summed it up perfectly, to be honest.

PS: Where's Baggie Dave when you need him?
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 04:10 pm:   

Wow - a proper debate! and about regeneration issues too!

If only John Prescott could see us - they'd be tears of joy running into his pie!

Thanks for backing me up Jack - I too live on the wrong side of the tracks (or the right side if you're one of these working class snobs who thinks that clean streets, low crime and shops with glass windows instead of chipboard are the preserve of the bourgoisie!

All I was saying is that the area needs a revamp! There are lots of useful shops down there but I think if people removed their rose tinted glasses and asked any of the shopkeepers I think they'd tell you that business is bad and they'd rather be situated next to sainsbury's (ie where the customers are). The fact is the place is scruffy.

The council know this and have a strategy for developing the area - including building on the boarded up site next to the skate shop and redeveloping the station. Have a look on their website under regeneration.
BaggieDave
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 04:13 pm:   

TJ, who needs Perry Vale when you have Wood Vale, a (shut) post office, a pub converted to flats, but... we do have a decent offie selling vegan beer from certified organic politically correct micro breweries, so when we get pished (because we are so depressed about the lack of facilities compared with you lot over the other side of the tracks)we can do so with a conscience.

But well done for most of you having a go at TJ. I am not alone. Perhaps he'll move out.
ToffeeJim
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 14 December, 2004 - 04:41 pm:   

Solidarity CT! I'll have you signed up for the Forest Hill Popular People's Front yet. And as for you BaggieDave, come the revolution you'll be the first against the wall (or in your case the first against the organic privet hedge).

Any chance of posting that link CT? You know what it is with us Luddites and any kind of technical challenge.......
Bosco
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 15 December, 2004 - 09:35 am:   

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/planning/planning_briefs_foresthill.asp - think this is it TJ.
jumbomaclooney
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 19 December, 2004 - 01:26 pm:   

A friend of mine was mugged a week or so ago near the intersection of the A205 and Brockley Rise. He was knocked to the ground and kicked several times by two young men who fled with his wallet. He staggered into a nearby shop where the proporietor yelled at him to get out as he was bleeding on his carpet. Nice.
UKM
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 19 December, 2004 - 04:56 pm:   

what was the name of the shop that your friend went into?
A Boy
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 20 December, 2004 - 04:56 pm:   

To reply to jumbomaclooney , I got attacked by some Asians at the bottom of Woolfstone Rd and when they fled I too refuge in the local corner shop, my nose was bleeding and the arrogant git shop owner told me to get out of his shop, very community spirited, reminds me, must go around a super glue his door locks one evening.......
A Victim
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 24 December, 2004 - 04:27 pm:   

I have just had it with mugging when I have been mugged yesterday police should do something about it.The mugger stole a '2,000 POUND'ring!
Brian
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 29 December, 2004 - 12:03 pm:   

This is getting very worrying. I have lived in the area all my life at up until now felt safe walking arround at all times. I am becoming very concerned.
We need action not words. Unfortunately they are not caught very often so the only answer is those who are caught are very seriously punished.
I am fed up with the liberal guardian / independent readers attitute that they have had difficult upbringings and should be given another chance.
I am not sure what the sentence for mugging is but should be minimum of 5 years.
Michelle
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 29 December, 2004 - 03:14 pm:   

I totally agree with you Brian, I think itís absolutely disgusting. We have been burgled last year and the police did nothing about it. They came took fingerprints and thatís it, we received a letter with the crime reference number. The worst is not only what we lost but the fact that we were asleep next door. Even now after one year I still jump every time I hear a noise. I agree we shall do something but what.
Alan
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 29 December, 2004 - 03:52 pm:   

To summarise...

It seems from this thread that most people don't think the council is doing enough to make Forest Hill residents feel safe and it is not doing enough to help local business grow.

We've heard this all before. The question is - when the hell are they actually going to do something about it?

IMHO FH is going down the pan - fast. I'm currently viewing property in Upper Sydenham and East Dulwich.
Liz
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 29 December, 2004 - 09:25 pm:   

I know how you feel but we couldn't afford to move that way.

There's definately more street crime, there is more graffiti (every bus stop I've been to recently, the shops down Perry Vale/Rise end, lots of fences around this area too) general anti-social behaviour and disorder.

What I find strange is that the area has really changed in the last 6 months, I don't understand why.
megan
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 29 December, 2004 - 11:48 pm:   

My parent live in Upper Sydenham, Longton Avenue to be precise, i lived there for 23 years and I can only say that crime was extermely high around there my car was broken into 5 times and my parents house was broken into at least 8 times in about 3 years. My mums neighbour was mugged 2 weeks ago in Longton Grove and forced to hand over all his credit cards and mobile phone, whilst lying on the floor was a knife held to his neck.

My point is it happens everywhere in London no one is safe, we need to be more aware of going on's and this website is keeping us informed. I think we just need to be a bit more street wise not walk the streets late at night on your own etc etc, its sad that we can't but hey that the modern era we live in!!!!
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 09:48 am:   

As I just moved into the area 6 mths ago can I first point out that I am not responsible for the recent changes you refer to Liz!

I'd like to point out that the stats don't support the view that crime has risen recently - at the last meeting of the FH Steering Group, some figures were given by the police that showed crime had actually fallen (quite a lot too) in the last year.

I personally agree with Megan, this sort of thing happens all across london and we just need to be as careful as poss when out on the streets.

Having said that, I think some better lighting in certain streets and some general improvements to the local environment will go a long way to alleviate peoples fear of crime. It's worth remembering by the way that the fear of crime can have greater negative effect on local vitality than actual incidents. In part the media are responsible for the rise in FOC but the sort of talk on this thread doesn't really help either.

Also worth remembering is that the 'blitz spirit' during the war where everyone pulled together and there wasn't any crime wasn't true. Actually crime was higher then than in peacetime but it just went unreported as there was other more newsworthy stuff going on - plus the govt had vested interests in giving that impression.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that we shouldn't let or allow the fear of crime stop us from enjoying Forest Hill - that doesn't help anyone except the criminals.
Liz
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 10:46 am:   

Thanks CT. I guess I should explain myself a little more... :) here goes...

I understand that the fear of crime is as much of a controlling factor and battle as crime itself. I'm also a believer in 'no smoke without fire'.

I too moved to Forest Hill 6 months ago, I had lived in Honor Oak Park before moving here. Since then, I have noted a distinct change in the look and feel of the area and I haven't seen any real improvements. There has been talk on this discussion board and in the council's proposals about changes to many things but, as far as I can see none of this has actually happened.

Improvements to the station and Perry Vale are the most notable for me. The things we generally associate with crime are summed up in this area - poor lighting, graffiti, unkept subway, ill-looking property/land etc. I've seen this slowly filter down to the shops at the other end where it joins Perry Hill. I don't believe it's a fear of crime as such, I can actually see those things commonly associated with crime on the increase.

Part of my decision to move here was that there seemed to be a lot of promise. There was a buzz about Forest Hill but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Growth on the high street will be stunted by the over-imposing Sainsbury's. From this board I would say there isn't enough being done to support local business and the FH resident's interests. (ref - threads on affordable rents etc)

I guess my concern is, how long do we need to wait before the council and law enforcement agencies actually do something, are they only reactive rather than preventative?

These have been concerns for many people it would seem and as I've said - nothing appears to have been done. Sadly - it's been at the expense of those who have suffered robbery, those who are having to put up with anti-social behaviour and a slow deterioration in the appearance of the local environment.

All of these issues have been signaled in one way or another on this board and we're seeing the side-effects of a lack of responsiveness.

I can't help feeling a sense of 'I (we) told you so' towards the council...
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 11:35 am:   

I've lived in FH for four years and during that time can't say that I've seen a distinct change in the look and feel of the area, let alone the last six months. If anything, things have improved, in particular in the high street, with new bars and restaurants etc. Think you're overstating your case somewhat, Liz.
CT
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 12:05 pm:   

Liz, maybe you're just coming to the end of you're honeymoon period with FH. Sorry, that sounds really patronising - but you know what I'm trying to say.

I agree with Jack, if anything things are improving (new bars and new housing etc all bringing in more people). Although certain people on this board who hanker after the glory days of widespread unemployment and race riots will disagree - you know who you are...

Not that I'm a sop to LB Lewisham, but what little money they have to spend on these things tends to be directed to other - 'priority' - areas. The fact is FH is doing rather nicely compared with other parts of the borough. Although being one of the nicest parts of lewisham doesn't really put us very far up the city wide table.

I think if we put the pressure on them a bit more they might be inclined to slip a bit of cash our way.

Remember: Rule of Local Govt #1. All things come to those who shout loudest and longest.

So, what are we going to do about it then?
Cathy
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 02:49 pm:   

I think there has been some noticeable increase in problems with the continuing decay of Dartmouth Road. I don't think it's all down to the fear of crime making us imagine things are worse. I agree there have been postive improvements ie new pub and a couple of new shops opening but we need to encourage a wider range of businesses to the area, or at least to renovate and convert some of the empty shops.
I think Liz does have a point and I don't think any of us are hankering back to a golden age. We're just being realistic.
Cathy
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 30 December, 2004 - 02:52 pm:   

By the way, does anyone know what's happening with the pine furniture shop? I notice the stock hasn't been cleared away yet.
Liz
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 02 January, 2005 - 05:42 pm:   

I don't want the point to be lost here.

My perception is that the time and effort spent improving Forest Hill and the surrounding areas is slowly being undone.

Afterall our council tax should deal with these issues, surely it makes sense to deal with them sooner rather than later...
Matt
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 03 January, 2005 - 02:05 am:   

Just a personal view, but London Road Forest Hill feels dangerous at night, often with suspicious looking characters hanging around. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there is an increase in begging, and some of it is of the "in-yer-face" variety.

Lets hope Forest Hill hasn't just been abandoned by the council who promised to do so much.

matt
DG
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 03 January, 2005 - 05:48 pm:   

Thank you Liz for your comments, I feel there is something almost uncanny going on in Forest Hill. Why is it that Sydenham is doing so much better? Businesses are changing in Sydenham too but there are fewer empty shops and the turn over is much faster, Brockley is the same, Honor Oak to a degree is getting there. In Forest Hill I have seen some shops being closed for years now. I think Lewisham needs to do much more and Jim Dowd needs to be more vocal about the issue of regeneration. Businesses have been given grants to improve their shop fronts and that's great but this money came mainly from the EU not Lewisham, they have appointed a Town Centre Manager at what cost, I wonder? and what has been the result? We need more than gimmicks

DG
CITH
Joined N/A
Posted on Monday, 03 January, 2005 - 11:06 pm:   

I totally agree with Liz and DG, what exactly is going on in Forest Hill? We have a disfigured shopping area, poor shopping facilites, a dodgy station, tons of graffiti, car crime, robbery, beggars etc... etc...!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't really enjoy Forest Hill for the reasons I moved here. Given some of the topics on this board I think I'll be heading out of here soon too!
mark
Joined N/A
Posted on Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 - 10:59 pm:   

some sense finally.

forest hill is poor these days. i haven't gone out there for a while now, its getting worse
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 11:41 am:   

I still say it's one of the better places to live in London. Is Sydenham really doing any better - can't say that I've noticed. All the problems that have been mentioned (graffiti, begging, car crime etc) are an unfortunate part of living in London. That's not to say that there isn't plenty of room for improvement, but please, people, stop exagerrating the situation.
Rob
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 01:27 pm:   

Jack - I couldn't agree more. I've lived in Forest Hill for more than three years, and in that time I have seen a slow and steady improvement. We have two new excellent restaurants in Latitude and the Dartmouth Arms. The buildings opposite the station have been converted into flats. The Century Yard development has opened and has really improved the look of the centre. There are, of course, areas of much-needed improvement; in particular Sainsbury's and the station, which are both a disgrace.

I would assume that everyone who uses this site does so because they care about the area. Some of the comments on SE23 are valid but many are wildly exaggerated in the hope of generating more ill-informed feedback. By reinforcing a negative stereotype without looking at the positive developments - when was the last time there was a positive strand on this site? - we are all contributing to the lack of investment in our community. When future traders, investors and families are looking to move to SE23, where would they look first? Here! Anyone moving to the area would be instantly put-off. Come on people, let's give constructive criticism that reflects a fair balance of the area. I think that SE23 is one of the best areas of South East London. I'll be starting a new forum as of today; only positive comments are allowed. Thanks.
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 01:40 pm:   

Spot on, Rob - good to see someone with a positive outlook for a change, as opposed to Liz, CITH and all the other harbingers of doom that have been dominating this thread of late.

Once again, FH is far from perfect, but comments like 'forest hill is poor these days. i haven't gone out there for a while now, it's getting worse' are so wide of the mark that I'm suspicious about the motives of the people posting them - see the earlier thread on the Southwark & Lewisham Independent to see what I mean.
Rob
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 01:57 pm:   

cheers Jack. See you on Positive News.
Newman
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 04:46 pm:   

Liz, you seem to be building up a sizeable following with your comments - in light of Jack and Rob's recent remarks, why not set up your own website (www.se23sucks.com perhaps?) where you can all be as negative as you like. At least then we won't have to read anymore comments along the lines of 'I used to like FH when it were all fields'
BaggyDave
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 05:21 pm:   

I used to like Forest Hill when I had a local pub and a post office (Wood Vale). But to realise how lucky I am to live in SE23 I only have to take a trip to SE26 (where I lived previously for 9 years) to see how that has gone down hill (slipping down to Bell Green).

Over to you Toffee Jim
Liz
Joined N/A
Posted on Wednesday, 05 January, 2005 - 09:36 pm:   

I'm not asking for people to agree or disagree with me, I'm simply stating my thoughts, which, as far as I know, isn't against the rules of using the forum.

I live here for a reason, I like SE23. My comments make it clear that I don't believe it's all doom and gloom but, it could be better, and the council could do more. It's been a constructive debate and I believe it's been worthwhile (at least for myself) to know that fellow-SE23'ers share some of my thoughts and it's worthwhile knowing that not everyone does, as we would live in a boring place. Just because some of us find it a little more difficult to see the beauty of Forest Hill or rather we do we see the beauty of Forest Hill, we're shotdown!

What I have noticed with some of the, let's say, volatile comments, is that there hasn't been anything 'constructive' said. Telling my I'm wrong is fine but without a reason other than 'you're a harbinger of doom' etc isn't really worth it. Rob has offered something for me to think about. BaggyDave makes a point but I still don't know why Sydenham has gone down hill and how that compares to Forest Hill.

Across many of the threads it seems to dissolve down to nothing particularly interesting or of value. If we stick to the debate we may at least give the councillors who seem to use this site a way of understanding peoples' concerns. And just for the record...

The Horniman is amazing.
The new pubs are great.
The new restaurants are great.
The shops at both ends of Perry Vale are great.
One Tree Hill is great.
Honor Oak Park and parade are both great.
etc...
etc...
etc...

I hope that keeps some of the more fragile ones out there happy.

[Here's waiting for the backlash...]
Danny
Joined N/A
Posted on Thursday, 06 January, 2005 - 11:20 pm:   

I am bit scared of saying this but I see where your coming from Liz
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 08:58 am:   

It isn't a case of a backlash, Liz, I was just fed up of a seemingly endless stream of negative nonsense. If you go back and read some of your comments, you stated your deeply negative thoughts again and again and again and then a number of other people chimed in with 'FH is a sewer' type comments. As Rob mentioned, anyone interested in setting up shop or moving here would probably use this website as their first port of call. If they went on the comments being made in this thread, they would blacklist the area. It was getting a bit OTT and needed to be addressed.
Pete
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 10:09 am:   

Jack - I agree. It's all about balance. There are some valid points on this site about what the Council and other investors could do to improve the area. But without balance of comment we're at risk of shooting ourselves in the foot and no-one taking us seriously.
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 10:33 am:   

Cheers, Pete. Liz seems to be missing the point when she says that "just because some of us find it a little more difficult to see the beauty of Forest Hill (something of an understatement!!)...we're shotdown!"

She wasn't being shotdown - myself and Rob were just trying to bring some balance to a thread that was bordering on the ridiculous.
ronnie
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 01:43 pm:   

This is a site about muggings so perhaps all these last comments are in the wrong place! I have lived here for 20 years- things have changed over that time and not for the better. There have been a few perceptible improvements over the last two years with the new restaurants but in general there the fabric has declined especially around the station area which is now a real problem due to muggings , cashpoint hijacking, and as someone mentioned earlier, lots more dodgy people around. I understand from the police that this is because 'trade' has been successfully pushed out of Brixton and has ended up elsewhere, including here. There are no apparent measures to effectively deal with this although there is an increased police presence at odd times.
I went to collect someone from the station last night at 9.15am- there were people actively dealing drugs in the parking area. It was scary. I want to be 100% positive about this area but unless problems are brought out into the open and addressed, nothing will get done.

PS I have nothing to do with the Lewisham Independent!
Newman
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 02:03 pm:   

It's like everything in life...if you look hard enough for the negatives, you will undoubtedly find them wherever you live. You see muggings, cashpoint hijackings and lots more dodgy people around. I haven't seen a noticeable increase in any of these things during the time I have lived in the area. And I often come out of the station at the time you mention without seeing people actively dealing drugs in the parking area.

Of course there are problems and you need to be vigilant when out and about. But for what it's worth, I feel much safer living in this area than I have in other parts of London.
Newman
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 02:10 pm:   

BTW, this is not a site about muggings, although someone new to see23.com would be forgiven for thinking so with all the scaremongering that has been taking place on this thread!
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 03:11 pm:   

Muggings, cashpoint hijackings, lots more dodgy people around, anti-social behaviour, drug dealing, grafitti and general disorder. I sometimes wonder if we're talking about the same Forest Hill that I find to be a good, up and coming place to live.
megan
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 03:18 pm:   

for godsake drugs are dealt all over the united kingdom just because you saw it in Forest Hill doesn't mean the area is doomed! You have just been made aware of the problem. I have lived in Forest Hill for years and I think the area is coming up in the world not down. Its unfortunate that we see beggers and hear of muggings but thats part of life today. Sorry I think people should stop being so negative.
Jack
Joined N/A
Posted on Friday, 07 January, 2005 - 03:33 pm:   

Exactly, megan. Well, at least now we are getting more positive comments about the area to offset the 'run for the hills, we're being overrun by drug pushers, beggars and criminals' brigade. Once again, their comments bear no relation to the FH that I know. Instead of posting their silly comments on this site, why don't they send them to the Lewisham Independent instead - the people there love that kind of stuff.
Angry
Joined N/A
Posted on Saturday, 15 January, 2005 - 10:34 pm:   

This is totally pathetic Baggy dave and Toffee Jim. Do people really care about you and your trivial arguments about posh estates and living the right side of the tracks? Meanwhile real people are suffering around the world, particularly in the Big Brother Household. What is happening to the world?
Newman
Joined N/A
Posted on Sunday, 16 January, 2005 - 10:17 am:   

Dave and TJ, it's time that you put aside your differences - why don't you meet at a neutral venue and discuss your 'issues' in detail over a pint or two of vegan beer? If you decide to do this, let me know, as I'll start selling tickets and taking bets as to how long you last before punches are thrown.


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