|Posted on Tuesday, 02 March, 2004 - 08:41 am: |
You will no doubt have read about the horrific and worrying attack on a commuter by four youths in an alley off Dartmouth Road last Wednesday at 7.30pm. Does anyone know if there has been any progress in apprehending the perpertrators. And where exactly is the alley in question?
|Posted on Tuesday, 02 March, 2004 - 01:46 pm: |
I have not read about this and live just off dartmouth Road. Can you give me details of what happened or let me know where I can find out? It is very worrying.
|Posted on Tuesday, 02 March, 2004 - 03:07 pm: |
It was in the South London Press on February 17th.
|Worried FH Resident|
|Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 10:33 am: |
Which alley was this? Was it the tunnel by the side of WH Smiths under the railway lines? Im not sure of any other alley ways along Dartmouth Rd as i live in the opposite direction in Forest Hill but i am very concenred by this incident...
|Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
May I suggest that whoever needs to know what is happening with regards to this incident or others, contact the Local Police. I am not sure whether antone visiting this message board for the first time will appriciate concern of the original posting and may well be put off of the area by negative reports..................
Please use the message forum for what it is intended.
|Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
May I suggest that whoever needs to know what is happening with regards to this incident or others, contact the Local Police. I am not sure whether anyone visiting this message board for the first time will appriciate concern of the original posting and may well be put off of the area by negative reports..................
Please use the message forum for what it is intended.
|Posted on Wednesday, 03 March, 2004 - 08:06 pm: |
With respect,would Kevin like to clarify for me just what is the intention of the Discussion Forum?
Whilst I always enjoy reading and learning about the calmer aspects of Forest Hill, I am also aware of the less attractive elements of living in this or any other inner city neighbourhood and to ignore important local news is naive and blinkered.
|Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
Many people who are looking to either visit / live in this area will no doubt have a quick google search for se23. This site will pop up straight away.
To have a public panic message thread will only put people off.
Very rarely, does a day go by without a serious crime being committed in se23. Or indeed any other postal area. But just because it is not printed in the SLP or other local rag, you are not aware of it. Although it is still happening.
My point is, if you want to know what the facts are regarding local crime and disorder then join the relevent group.
This could be a nieghbourhood watch, residents and tenents association or even the local sector working party group which not only tells you what and where things are happening they also show you how to get involved in the reduction of such instances by working in partnership with those who have been charged with making the difference to the affected communities.
By publishing crimes of note to this discussion board you will paint a negative picture of Forest Hill and the surrounding areas.
We all know that attacks and street crime are rife, why go on about individual incidents?
If I was indeed the victim of this crime, I would be more than a little dismayed to find I was the subject of a local discussion forum when all I want is to get on with life after such a nasty incident.
I do not think it niaive to omit crime details from a community message boards. I just think that it should be discussed in the appropriate place thats all.
Burglary and robbery, assaults and car crime are all too frequent, but shocking people undermines the good work that the local authorities (Police/ Council and others) are doing in the field of reduction. These agencies need more support, not tabliod based speculation that raises the fear of crime which we all know when raised, actually increases the levels as well.
As someone who has been involed in Crime Reduction practice for the last 16 yrs, I am all to aware of the 'rumour mill' that follows a bad news story like this. people need the facts, not sensationist headlines that only spreads a fear of crime.
|Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 07:25 pm: |
I have to admit I am somewhat shocked at the response to my original posting. And saddened.I have absolutely no intention of raising anyone's fears about the relative safety of this or any other area.
But to have to censor my local discussion forum in case somebody from outside se23 might take offence and move elsewhere is simply childish and patronising.
I'm sorry, but sadly horrible things happen all the time. Surely, if there was news regarding the arrest of these individuals, then I for one would be grateful to hear about it. And if I get to hear about it through this forum, then that should be fine with you.I wanted to know the location of the alley so that my wife - and others - could be aware of it.What on earth is wrong with that? Your use of 'sensationlist headlines', 'rumour mill' and 'tabloid based speculation' leaves me speechless. If all you want to read about is a censored and purified picture of se23, then perhaps you need to start another forum.I want to know about my area - the good,the bad and the ugly.
Finally, had I been the unfortunate victim of this crime, I would totally understand the shock and outrage felt by my local community and any dismay would be reserved for those who would rather it be
quietly ignored lest it upset anyone.
|Posted on Thursday, 04 March, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
I surely agree with Graham. What makes me really upset however is that the picture of the gentleman attacked recently is horrifying. The physical and emotional pain involved must be very important. YET the fantastic Police force that Kevin defends so vividly, haven t put up a sign to acknowledge this event and to ask for people who witnessed it to come forward, as it si normally the case. Probably this is not a serious enough incident for this area ...this in turn just underlines the presence of far more important risks of danger in se23...so how good is this as a form of advertising ? And to finish, this is an open discussion forum and therefore everybody should feel FREE to join and exchange opinions on local topical issues. Graham almost had to justify himself for just showing some concern and looking for some information, I find it unbeliavable.
|Posted on Friday, 05 March, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
So we agree to disagree then. Thats Ok. But I stand by my earlier posting. The Police, Local authority and other agencies are working hard in the area to improve things. To highlight one incident amongst many other simply hightens peoples fear of crime as demonstrated by several of the above messages.
I stand by my word and if offence was caused by my message then I appologise.
It may be more helpfull to give advice as what you can do to prevent these dreadfull incidents occurring in the first place.
1) Dont text and walk, is the simplest way to advoid having your phone stolen. That goes for using your mobile in public places as well. As much as we would to think that we can and should use mobiles anywhere we want, just be aware that theives and street robbers are looking for people oblivious to their surroundings and just waiting for the opportunity to strike.
2) I Pods. Nice piece of kit. Very desirable. Robbers are looking for them as well. And they know who has got them as the owners are distinguishable from most walkman and discman users by the white leads and ear phones that set them apart. That is what the robbers are looking for.
3) Stay to well lit streets facing on coming traffic.
(if you notice street light that is out, return when light, take the lamp post number and report to the council. They have a 24hr policy, or used to, regarding the fixture of such street furniture.)
4) A cheap little gadget that can save you a lot of hassle is a personal attack alarm. From most DIY stores. For about ten quid, you could have yourself a little sonic boom box that omits 120 decibels of sonic alarm into the attackers face. Allways remember to run away after letting it off and making as much noise as possible to attract attention. Shouting 'Fire Fire' can sometimes get quicker assistance than calling Help Help.
5) Only use pre booked cabs or hackney carriage taxi (London Back Cabs).
The list could on and on and on, much like myself, but for full and comprehensive crimeprevention advice and information about what is happening in your area and how to advoid it, please start or join a Nieghbourhood Watch
http://www.met.police.uk/crimeprevention/neighbor.htm or http://www.neighbourhoodwatch.net/ or get involved with the local working parties that are very very active in the area. Contact your local police for more on this.
For the real facts regarding the actual crime rates go to
|Posted on Friday, 05 March, 2004 - 11:32 am: |
Sorry, the last link should read.......
Mind you, the one above could be very usefull is you are a victim of hate crime or violence within the home.
|Posted on Friday, 05 March, 2004 - 12:21 pm: |
To be honest , like a lot of people , I knew nothing of this attack.I still do not know anymore than has appeared in this forum. Surely the actual event could not be any worse than the adjectives used by many contributors.
Would it not be easier to close the matter by someone in the know giving the actual facts
|Posted on Friday, 05 March, 2004 - 08:00 pm: |
That's all I ever requested, Brian.
|Posted on Friday, 05 March, 2004 - 10:46 pm: |
I think your attempt at voluntary censorship was a red rag to a bull.
I think the attack was horrible, and should not be ignored.
I don't think anyone is going to read this webpage and think 'oh my god se23 is over-run with crime - there's a web page practically dedicated to it!'.
If you want to know about crime, look at the statistics, not internet chat rooms. Brixton is FAR worse and look at the property prices there!!!
My two pence worth,
|Posted on Saturday, 06 March, 2004 - 10:01 am: |
I seem to have missed the point Les.
What has this got to do with Property prices ?
|Posted on Saturday, 06 March, 2004 - 09:02 pm: |
In your first post on this topic you were concerned about people being put off the area by this forum. I guess I assumed you meant house-buyers. My mistake...
What I am getting at is that Brixton is very popular despite having (I think I remember reading) 600 REPORTED street crimes a year - and I know of two that weren't...
|Posted on Monday, 08 March, 2004 - 12:47 am: |
I am also dismayed by the response to Graham's mail. This is an issue affecting the local community and what better place to discuss it than a local community forum?
I think it's constructive and useful for us to know what is happening locally, events both good and bad. This is certainly the first I've heard about the incident, and I will certainly now exercise caution when travelling around that particular area.
|Posted on Tuesday, 09 March, 2004 - 10:53 am: |
kevin, i think you have been a tad patronising to the people who read and write comments in this forum. I think crime in the area is a worthy topic and i would like to know of any crimes that occur and it seems others would too..
|Posted on Tuesday, 09 March, 2004 - 10:54 am: |
and i didnt bullet point any comments there.
|Posted on Tuesday, 09 March, 2004 - 01:49 pm: |
The address below will take you direct to the total ammount of offences recorded by Lewisham Police for January 2004.
|Last posting, for sure this time|
|Posted on Thursday, 11 March, 2004 - 03:21 pm: |
Or this one
|Posted on Monday, 15 March, 2004 - 12:46 pm: |
I come to this discussion late, but am concerned because my flatmate was also set upon by a group of 4 or 5 lads at 7pm on valentines day just after he'd got off the train at honor oak park. the attack was seemingly motiveness, with the attackers only nicking his bag as an afterthought to repeatedly kicking him in the head. although there were plenty of witnesss (inc the bus driver of the P12 onto which the thugs jumped to escape) apparently it is unlikely the police will catch them.
note to kevin and prospective purchasers, this kind of thing can happen anywhere...
|Posted on Monday, 15 March, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
This does seem very worrying but not sure what anyone can do.Even if the Police catch them I doubt if they will be locked up.
Perhaps we could reintroduce penal servitude to Botony Bay or Van Diemens Land.
|Posted on Monday, 15 March, 2004 - 02:40 pm: |
As a homeowner in Forest Hill, what matters most to me is my personal safety, not the value of my house. It is quite clearly in the interests of local residents to know if there is an ongoing danger of this sort, as we can all be more alert to the people around us when making our way around the area. One cannot run a mile every time a few people come near us, but we can certainly choose not to be out alone after dark, or cross the street if groups of young men appear behind us (or indeed dig out those personal alarms). We are much more likely to be vigilant if we know there is a specific present threat. Surely a community based website is precisely the place you would expect to find such information?
|Posted on Monday, 15 March, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
Kevin's suggestion that we keep to well lit streets, is sadly of little use to residents of Taymount Rise who have to walk home in virtual darkness. That's why community discussions like this are so important. Knowing that there is a tangible danger gives impetus to our demands for better streetlighting in the area. ( see separate discussion on lighting) We all need to pool our ideas and resources, and the spread of information can only help to improve the quality of life in our area.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 12:15 am: |
We are all at the mercy of this new order......kids with knives and guns and no fear of prison. All over the city. That's what it comes down too. I was on the tube tonight, surrounded by loud mouthed city types. I knew that if such a gang of four walked on they could've held the carriage to ransome and walked away with it all. Fact is, folk are so anodine to theft now, they just hope it doesnt happen to them, but hell, if it does, cry insurance. There's a philosophical bent underpinning all this: my life is sorted unless someone does me wrong then I call the cops! Unfortunately this pervades to street crime, including rape. It's time people stood up to the toerag offspring of toerags. Sorry, but thats what they are. I can honestly say, i'd rather be knifed than hand over what little ive got, and i mean that. It's a principle. I come from a very poor background and i've worked for what ive got........sorry, but its not an option for me to hand it over cos you need drugs!
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 01:19 am: |
I agree. I come from a very poor and disadvantaged background yet managed to improve my life without attacking other people or stealing from them. There is no justification for violent muggings and the minute we start to provide excuses we legitimise such behaviour.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 02:58 am: |
Thank you, Cara. I still believe in the power of the voice. Most bullies are childlike at heart. And the first rule of avoiding harrassment is simply to avoid eye contact. But one memory sticks in my mind. About ten years ago I was sitting upstairs on a bus, near the back. A bunch of youths got on and because there were no seats available in that all were occupied singly, this group picked on one guy. They told him to get out of his seat. When he refused they jumped on him en masse and the whole bus sat and watched. Poor guy was beaten up and he eventually got out to avoid any further beating. I felt disgusted with myself afterwards. I'm not sure of the right approach and obviously I dont advise women to involve themselves physically, but strangely women who can use their voices assertively seem to have more strength than any six foot guy like myself ever could. I do not recommend my course of action generally, but I have since been in similar situations and got up and involved myself. Of course , Ive been punched ( its only happened twice), but it has saved another individual from being battered. Actually, on both occasions others intervened once i did. There is a certain tenet here: society gets what it tolerates!
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 07:10 am: |
well said Cara and FHB . I agree 100%
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 10:31 am: |
All very fascinating, but we still don't know what alley it was.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 10:38 am: |
I agree with John. This attack has now taken on legendry levels because in the absense of facts peopple always assume the worse possible option.The actual attack hopefully was not as bad.
Could someone in the know please give details of the attack so we can close the matter.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 06:11 pm: |
Brian - I refer you to the web site address in the third message on this subject. It links you with the newspaper that covered the event.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 08:48 pm: |
I have no desire to scaremonger, or cause unease to anyone here, but I have experienced a couple of unpleasant incidents on the train home, and always on a Sunday evening. I tried to report one of the incidents to the transport police but gave up after attempting 4 times to get through to the control centre. It was a number given to me by one of the new 118 services, so maybe that could explain it!
Sunday evenings seem to be the time when you're more likely to witness anti-social behaviour, either on the Forest Hill train itself, or near the station car park. However, on balance I think this is a safe and pleasant area to live in, and the volume of messages triggered by the recent attack shows that violent crime is, thankfully still rare round these parts.
|Posted on Tuesday, 16 March, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
oh and just to add, they weren't emergencies or i'd have immediately dialled 999.
|Posted on Wednesday, 17 March, 2004 - 06:50 pm: |
CHIPS The criminals who attacked your flatmate on Valentine's day, repeatedly kicking him in the head and robbing him with such violence, ought not to be described as 'lads'. 'Lad' is traditionally common parlance for a decent young man - not a savage. Your friend's attackers are violent criminals, brutal thugs who should be made to compensate their victims. It might also be useful to give them a demonstration of what it feels like to meet savages like them in what is supposed to be a civilised country.
It is fanciful to expect the witnesses you speak of to try and tackle these creatures - quite likely they themselves would end up on the wrong side of what now passes for 'the law'. (Incidentally,when did you last see a policeman in Forest Hill?) There is not much you can do about the social decline of Forest Hill or Greater London for that matter, but please, don't describe a criminal thug as a 'lad' - such Orwellian misnomers only make things worse.
|Posted on Thursday, 18 March, 2004 - 07:42 am: |
There is an alleyway which runs from near the railway tunnel along the railway itself to the industrial estate in the road adjacent to Provender. This is a likely candidate
|Posted on Tuesday, 13 April, 2004 - 02:16 pm: |
I was attacked last year by 4 lads in the West End: sucker-punched, and kicked and beaten badly while unconscious. When passersby saw them go for my wallet (also as an afterthought) a group of men stepped in and 'stopped' them for the police to arrive.
The sad fact is that these gangs, etc, will always feel safe to prey on people while so many turn a blind eye. The only reason I came out so lightly (cracked ribs and concussion) was because people came to help. It's just a fact. Even the police will ask for help if they're being attacked. But as long as people turn a blind eye they will continue to do it. I personally think more CCTV will help, and better street lighting in some places.
Apparently, if you shout "Help!" it's little use. If you shout "Fire!" you're more likely to get help :/
|The Cat In The Hat|
|Posted on Sunday, 02 May, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
I do find it all little sad. SE is a wonderful part of London and still relatively afordable. I am looking to buy in FH and although this discussion about crime does not / will not put me off it does make me think how safe I / my girlfriend will be walking home at night. In the majority I have seen on multiple occasions gangs of teenagers walking the streets, smoking on buses, graffiting trains etc etc. It's a general issue of social misconduct and a lack of visible policing.
|Posted on Thursday, 06 May, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
Let's get things in perspective though - nasty stuff like this is unfortunately pretty commonplace elsewhere. Every week the SLP has something in - often in places like Battersea. FH is still very quiet and things like this extremely rare, but there is no exclusion zone round the place to stop the criminal element.