|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 11:38 am: |
This thread for your comments please. If you can please comment here regarding crime issues or indeed re: the 'no comments' thread, it would help keep the other thread free to report incidents only. A gradual incident log to be built up. Get the idea? Your cooperation is much appreciated.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 11:40 am: |
Two of the bus stop hoodies have since been arrested.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 11:46 am: |
Ah, Ana, urbane as ever.
Why the career as bar owner and video shop owner, when a career as counsellor, diplomat, international hostage mediator or horse whisperer surely beckoned?
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 12:20 pm: |
Ok. I will repost my comment which was deleted:
"Are these incidents at the bus stop a new occurence?"
i.e is this new, groups of hoodies hanging on the parade? I have always felt safe walking around but sometimes ignorance is bliss...
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |
I am told that there is a possibility that the same group targetting Mr Lawrences bus stop has moved on as a result of pressure from police. Hopefully this latest arrest will nip the problem in the bud before it escalates.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 01:39 pm: |
Echoing, and maybe extrapolating from Ghis's comment...
I am wondering about the wisdom of advertising incidents of anti-social behaviour in the middle of our neighbourhood. I mean, I can see that it's useful for someone to keep a track of these sorts of things, but is it really appropriate for something like this to be kept in a forum like this?
Don't get me wrong, I don't think it will exacerbate the behaviour, but I do think that focussing on the negative is all to easy. Since these issues are obviously being logged elsewhere, what would reproducing them on this forum add, aside from possibly leading to a perception that every group of young people with any kind of headwear are likely to be muggers/vandals/tree surgeons?
If bad things happen I trust the Met to alert us by putting up a big yellow sign asking for info - I don't think that we need to advertise incidents further here.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 01:56 pm: |
Dave - you took the words right out of my mouth! I would go further and say that I think it is an incredibly bad idea to have this kind of thing on a community forum. It not only leads to a perception that all kids wearing hoods are up to no good - it also creates a perception that honor oak itself is an unsafe area - hardly the kind of perception a local business would want to create so find it hard to see where Ana is coming from on this one.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 02:19 pm: |
There is no easily accessible public log of incidents that is area specific (that I know off), and often funding is only available for big yellow signs once the problem becomes so severe. I think all Londoners are aware of the problem of opportunist crime, which Honor Oak is not alone in suffering, far from beng bad publicity for the area, surely it can also be seen as being proactive and vigilant to keep the area safe for all, it does empower us that little bit more. I'd rather be informed with specific incidents and locations than be a victim after the fact is logged in an unknown database held by the police, that gets distributed as a statistic in the local elections. I shall coninue to log any incidents I hear off. Honor Oak is certainly safer then most areas of Lewisham, violent crime is virtually unheard off, we should not be complacent.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 02:35 pm: |
I'm not sure this is right forum either. However, if you do think it is then, perhaps the webmaster could create a separate area for reporting (ie Beyond SE23). Ana perhaps you could establish a proforma? If everyone contributing has a different format analysis of any info will be tricky.
Without wanting to trialise any sort of crime, your postings so far have sounded almost comical and remind me of the Not the 9 o'clock News sketch where an unfortunate Mr Winston Kadogo is arrested for wearing a loud shirt in a built up area.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 02:46 pm: |
I am not sure that my DJ who had 4 'hoodies' jump in his van and hold him down for money, his watch and equipment will agree, neither would the insurer s for the 16k that was stolen from the securicor man be amused either. If it had not been for my partner who risked his own safety to chase them, nothing would have been recovered, my DJs livlihood would be gone and the two arrest would not have been made. Shame on you and your smugness. I think it's the perfect forum to highlight these local issues. I do not set out to be controversial, simply neighbourly. I hope you remin safe in the meantime.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:06 pm: |
I hope so too. Therefore I will heed your advice and reframe from visiting HOP as it sounds like a pretty dangerous place.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:26 pm: |
I have mixed views really... I did hear the "hoodies" vs dj incident as the chase passed my house and all the shouting/swearing (mostly swearing) woke me up... so whilst I feel it is good to be informed and vigilant and have a realistic idea of what is happening in HOP... I also wonder if it'll make me feel that bit more uncomfortable walking from the train station late at night on my own something I've never felt before in HOP.
I don't think forums should just represent all that is positive about an area... on a positive note if people become more vigilant - like a HOP wide neighbourhood watch then that can also only be a good thing? and there are many positive threads/posts on this website to balance out the negative. what do others think?
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:31 pm: |
"Shame on you and your smugness"?! I though Haylands makes a valid point, even if you do feel his pay-off is inappropriate, and it doesn't call for that sort of condescending reply. There is a risk that your thread is going to scare the bejesus out of people of thinking about moving into the area. Perhaps you should mention on the thread that we are not allowed to make comments on (?!) that SE23 in general has low crime rates and is a safe place to live, rather than giving the impression that we'll be jumped by a gang of hoodies when we get off the train.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:41 pm: |
I would agree with Deanos that adding a bit more of an introduction to the no comments thread would be a good idea so people don't start to panic when they read it.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:42 pm: |
I think we should concentrate on whether a crime cascade will make a positive difference? Will we get CCTV's/funding? Even if we do, will it reduce the crime that is being reported on this forum? Or are we only going to spook ourselves by reading about what is 'really' going on in this seemingly peaceful, even sleepy part of South-East London?
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:43 pm: |
True Haylands was spot on in his/her first paragraph but I was referring to his Not the 9 o'clock reference which was smug and unhelpful. I know Honor Oak's safety record is bigger then all of this, so let's get some perspective on this. A crime incident log is just as useful as a thread of local restaurants and bars and if I were a potential new resident and was so concerned by this incident log (with two incidents in a week) I would move to the country, there are fewer safer postcodes.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 03:54 pm: |
In answer to Lola's point. In the intro to the Cascade, I do point out that the incident log, if it works, will be used to highlight issues to the police, we desparately need CCTV near the station and at the top of the parade, the log will be very influential in getting the funding for this. As it stands we do not stand out as a priority to the authorities, it may be that in the end the log only serves to show that we are relatvely safe, but should that change, we can get something done faster.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 04:07 pm: |
While I have no wish to be accused of being smug, this link might be very useful in the context of this conversation:-
Not sure if Ana is after something more granular but I think that the official crime stats are (while not perfect) probably a whole lot better than anything we might collect here. Saying that, there is a value in anecdote - so maybe an open thread on "bad things which have happened" and which can be discussed is a good thing.
By the way, the yellow boards I was referring to are the ones which go up after a crime is committed appealing for info. I find it slightly reassuring that we're clearly not all that familiar with them in HOP.
On a personal note, I don't feel any safer having lots of CCTV around - while it might mean that someone gets spotted doing something, it doesn't stop them doing it entirely (and incidentally, the point of the hood on "hoodies" is, as I understand it, to try to prevent CCTV recording a face and being used to make an identification - I don't know how others feel about it, though.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 04:56 pm: |
There's no solid evidence CCTV does any good. Money would be better spent elsewhere.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 08:49 pm: |
So how would the July 7 bombers and their routes have been identified so quickly without CCTV?
The Brixton bomber was also identified through CCTV.
Generally CCTV tends to displace criminals to areas which do not have CCTV.
|Posted on Thursday, 19 July, 2007 - 11:00 pm: |
The cameras from the council cost circa £40k, much more effective and are monitored by operators live much more effective then the one we have at Equal outside the business. Hoods or not great distances and clearer features are picked out. The police often (don't get alarmed) call on my footage to follow up minor incidents on the parade and have had convictions based on this footage. I have had two large insurance payouts for my car as a result of vandalism and denial by another party of ramming into my car. It works for me and it works for the police.
|Posted on Friday, 20 July, 2007 - 08:40 am: |
Like many of you my original thoughts, when I saw this thread was that highlighting crime in our area (for whatever reason) would put off future buyers/investors in the area and was therefore not the best idea. However the more I think about it, the more I see it as good thing. If they have found this forum, they are using the internet, if they are using the internet they will have also come across all manner of articles and comments concerning HOP and FH - including many about crime in our area.
I therefore see this thread as being a potential counterbalance to what they have read elsewhere. Yes it would highlight the crimes that have happened, but it would also to act as a positive by passing on warning from the police & residents concerning issues of the day e.g. a current spate of muggings outside the station, and providing updates on arrests and conviction of those responsible. More importantly though, it could actually highlight that all things considered HOP is a pretty safe place to live.
|Posted on Friday, 20 July, 2007 - 09:27 am: |
Yes, CCTV tends to displace crime. Exactly. Money best spent elsewhere. As I said.
|Posted on Friday, 20 July, 2007 - 01:05 pm: |
Rest assured those of you primaily interested in the value of your property we are in a low crime area. Bit disturbed about the "us and them" debate, not exactly inclusive is it (where is Dave Whiting where you need him?).
This is where I started posting on SE23 three years ago - on the 'Forest Hill is full of muggers' threads (search on Google and you will find some interesting postings from me and others). Oh and thanks to the Webmaster for putting stuff in a Google form, so I can find old comversations much easier!