It is my understanding that design competitions are free. I'm not sure why Lewisham Council think they are too expensive.

Surely getting innovative, costed design by pitching one firm against another to see what is possible is great value. How many surveys have the council done on the site so far? How many times have they changed their mind? How much did that cost? How many meetings did the council have?

Here are the guidelines from RIBAS own website:

Guidelines for clients

Types of competition
Today, the format of an architectural competition is determined by the requirements of the client and the specific project. Each competition is tailored to individual needs.

There are 2 distinct forms of competition:

* to find the right architect or design team for a project
* to find the most appropriate design solution for a project.


Finding an Architect
Finding the right architect is usually done through Competitive Interview. This process is relatively quick and is especially suited to projects where the appointed architect is required to help the client develop the project brief.


Finding a Design Solution
Finding the most appropriate design solution requires a detailed brief to be issued to all participants to enable comparative design submissions to be made.


Standard Competitive Processes
There are many tried and tested competitive processes which enable a client to select either an architect or a design solution:


* Competitive Interview to find the right architect
Expressions of interest are requested from registered architects, with a shortlist being selected for interview. Only a broad project brief is required, and a commitment to build.
* Open Ideas Competition
This is run to identify a range of possible design solutions, against a broad conceptual brief, with no commitment to build.
* Open Project Competition to find a single design solution
Often a 2-stage competition, open to all registered architects with a detailed project brief and a commitment to build.
* Invited Competition to find a single design solution
Restricted to selected architects, with a detailed project brief and a commitment to build.

Tailor-made Competitions
The beauty of the competitive process is that it is completely flexible and can be adapted to meet the specific requirements of each client, and each project. Many clients choose to combine the design competition with the competitive interview. By introducing an interview element into the design process, the client is able to determine the likely working relationship with the competing design teams. Adapting the competitive process to the needs of individual clients is a skill that is intrinsic in the service offered by the RIBA Competitions Office.

RIBA Approved Competitions
An RIBA Approved Competition indicates to contestants that the Institute is involved in the management of the competition and that the competitive process conforms to best practice standards. Only competitions which are approved by the Institute can be associated with the RIBA name and logo.

To find out more about the RIBA Competitions process please request a copy of the Guidance Notes for Clients by completing the online request form.

Totally agree with an architectural competition - and wonder why LBL didn't do this in the first place?

I went to a meeting about the redevelopment of Camberwell Baths a few nights ago to see how this approach works. Southwark had over 90 (yes, that's ninety!) applicants who submitted ideas to develop the site (most from award-winning architects with previous experience with pools). This was thinned down to three superb schemes which were presented to the audience. All with detailed plans and costings; all for free!

Let's have this approach put forward by the stakeholders group. But first we need to agree to move forward on the officer's report.

Apologies for not contributing to this debate, I am too depressed that my children will not have a local swimming pool. We DID use it, accepting its many shortcomings, interestingly that many of those who are most opposed to redevelopment of the site didn't, and probably aren't that bothered that their children will not have a facility.

As for Dulwich, we and most others will use Beckenham, the Bridge and Peckham without thinking of this alternative. Says a lot for architectural heritage.

Are we getting too sentimental over the site? Having looked at the 'Old Forest Hill and Sydenham' books last night are we just reacting the wanton destruction of some lovely architecture in the area in the 60s by Lewisham and others.

And where was the debate about saving the cinema? OK the building was saved but not for the visual arts. And some wonderful old pubs? Was anyone so active in this debate manning the barricades (as BD did for the Crystal Palace top site)? Or is this purely a virtual campaign.

i would like the pools reinstated as soon as possible too, actually from what i have understood from reading peoples responses, is that everybody wants that even the save the face of forest hill bunch.

i want, as i believe we all do, a scheme that is sustainable, financially as well as ecologically, done in the right way. and following posts from sydenhamcentral i know the processes but i cannot understand why ***** is playing these games, solutions are quick it is the council that is slow they got the money and i know plenty of architects that would relish this opportunity and the challenge of historical context.

...i agree, those that choose to forget history are destined to repeat it. re: louise house

you just can't please some people.
i found this in the newshopper today.
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/search/disp...r_pool.php

our wonderful mayor is "disappointed" over the listing of Louise House the poor love was it not so long ago he was "disappointed" the pools were not listed ?
so they are having a Mayor and Cabinet meeting tonight without the likes of the public allowed so what does that mean for foresthill pools?
there will not be another full consultation on the subject so does that mean lewisham are going to do what they like with the site ?

yes we all say we want a new pool and lewisham want more housing that much is very clear, so why do i get this feeling we are going to get a eye sore where the pool now stands and loose the park next to it for housing to please both side's while Louise house sits empty and allowed to rot till it falls down and lewisham can then build yet more housing.

The public are allowed to attend tonight's meeting and I shall be there along with others, I hope. The meeting starts at 6pm at the town hall. The public do not have an automatic right to speak but it is incorrect to say 'without the likes of the public allowed'.

I am not aware of Sir Steve stating he was disappointed that the pools were not listed. If he really wanted this then they would already be locally listed (which they are not), which is within the powers of the council.

The mayor has said on numerous occasions that he is committed to swimming on the site, but we need to see if the actions meet the words any time soon. I suspect there are many people outside of Forest Hill who think the whole project is more hassle than it is worth and do not care about swimming returning to Forest Hill. They could find lots of easy projects in Deptford, Downham, or even Sydenham on which to spend ?7.5m.

I hope people will come along this evening to support the future of swimming in Forest Hill.

I hope the 7.5 million is spent on the pools in Forest Hill. I hope Michaels comment above isn't interpreted that anyone from any area, Sydenham included, would try to stop development in Forest Hill to gain investment in their own area. This is, and never will be the aim of the STFOFH campaign.

A proper RIBA run design competition (which I believe should have been the case initially) where architects, as they have in Southwark with the Camberwell Baths, is the best way forward.

The consultation, with the 'design options' were never finished designs. Once one of the 3 options were chosen, it would have been handed to another architects and they would have thrown out the original designs and started from scratch, only including the said amount of housing for that scheme. Whether we would have had any say in that scheme remains to be seen.

This is why it would have been far better to throw the project over to a design led competition IN THE FIRST PLACE and let the architects do what they do best: create spaces and architecture. That may have included the original buildings.

That is the only we would have been able to see and vote for WHAT WE WOULD ACTUALLY GET.

I found the STFOFH petition person at the station the other night rather annoying, to be honest, suggesting that everything I said actually amounted to support for her position, when it really didn't.

I think the buildings are mediocre, personally, and I think priotitising them over the pools is cart before horse. If you care about the actual pools, call your group something else.

The mayor considered the pools issue this evening and once again reaffirmed his commitment to swimming in Forest Hill.

STFOFH, the Forest Hill Society (me), and the FH councillors all recommended to the mayor that a design competition is held. The mayor said he liked the idea and would not rule out the possibility, once we have the next feasibility study. He was concerned that it could add significantly to the timescale for developing the pool and he would need compare this with the timescale for appointing an architect through other means (European Tenders process).

The mayor was confident that English Heritage would not list the pools building following two rejections of the listing. Some people from STFOFH suggested to me that they would not seek to do this (however, it only takes one person to apply for listing). The mayor did indicate that the officers are making sure English Heritage is aware of their plans for the site. Both local councillors and I had suggested that the council apply for immunity from listing for the pools, to make sure that the 'sheds' at the back do not get listed and that the council can properly consider redevelopment that includes just the frontage or total demolition. However, this is apparently not possible until the planning application stage - which is still a long way off.

The mayor did clearly rule out refurbishment as too much of a risk even if it were technically possible - which is apparently doubtful.

There was no commitment to extra funding but a reassurance that the ?7.5m allocated to the project would be safe.

Chris Best emphasised the need for a quality facility fit for the 21st Century with proper provision of accessibility requirements. She suggested that the changing facilities were 'not fit for purpose'.

Conclusion:
The mayor accepted the report from the officers. Suggested that the feasibility study should be completed by January / February 2009 (a clarification I had sought regarding 'early 2009'). He asked that between now and then that officers keep the stakeholders group informed of the situation and progress.

It will be interesting to see what the conclusions of the feasibility study will be, what can be done with Louise House, what the future holds for the frontage of the pools, if there could be a design competition, and how much it will all cost.

I'm with Chris Best concerning the changing facilities.

News article about yesterday's meeting:
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/localh...l_rift.php

Interesting news item today about the rebuilding of the Weston super Mare's pier which was destroyed by fire two months ago.

Only eight weeks after the blaze a shortlist of designs has been selected for further investigation. This was procured after a design competition was announced to get ideas for reconstruction.

Now a pier isn't like a pools complex - at the end of the day it can only be a long projection which stretches from land out to sea. But isn't there a message here for LBL in relation to FH pools?

A design competition should be organised for the FH pools site and it should be got underway with delay.

Architectural companies are screaming out for safe commercially-reliable work in the current credit crisis. This is a local government-backed scheme with a ?7.5m "subsidy". If you tell companies that they have 3 months or so to get an outline scheme together, then they will get that scheme together . You can then select a shortlist and give them a further 3 months or so to flesh out their scheme for public scrutiny.

Please don't let this scheme be returned to the "Works Department" at LBL. Under the current scenario, we have to wait 5 months for them to undertake yet another feasibility study, where presumably another wad of our money goes down the drain with no certain conclusion.

We have already seen where a direct LBL scheme has got us (at a cost of around ?250,000 for "design" and "consultation").

Enough is enough. Let's get on with a design competition ASAP.

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/top-s...-21929004/

I totally agree with you Nasaroc.

It should have been done in the first place, although for some reason the council said it 'wasn't a big enough project'. This has been proved to be wrong.

Contact RIBA now LBC, get on with it. Do what should have been done in the first place. An OPEN creative brief for a set of facilities.

To keep up to date with our campaign and to read the correspondence with the Mayor in full, visit our site at:

http://sites.google.com/site/savetheface...thill/Home

Well at least Lewisham are not on the list of Councils that stupidly lost 'our' money to failed Icelandic banks. So there should be no excuse to cut funding!!!

The funding would have been frozen!

Unbelievable isn't it - and the fact that these Councils have 'spare' cash to actually think about investing.

You'd have thought that if they wanted diversification they would have at least stuck the cash across British banks.

Oh well, as noted above at least Lewisham are still liquid...

For anyone looking for a good pool whilst we have years of waiting would recommend Beckenham Pool. One bus to Penge ( 176 , 197 , 356 or 75 ) then short walk .

and will the council refund my bus fare?

You could ask them but with octapus card only GBP 1.80