Re reading this thread I am actually quite suprised that I am able to defend the Horniman "as it's only a cafe". My wife reminded me of stopping for lunch at a petrol service station in South Africa and her amazement at the clean, tidy service station and the wonderful food. If South Africa can get it right at a petrol station why cant England in a premier attraction like the Horniman?

Yes you would have thought that the franchise for such a well known institution would have demanded higher quality produce. Seems like school dinners.
I guess our complaints should be aimed at The Museum who presumable renew license every year.

you would think though, that a museum founded on the tea trade would be able to serve a decent cup of tea!

And now it seems that not only are our children not welcome in pubs, they are not welcome in museum cafes either (unless strapped to a chair leg). What next? the child-catcher with his horse and cart?

I totally agree! Mainly upset for the quality: being a cafe inside a museum and with such a nice setting I can understand the higher prices. But even starbucks makes a better coffee...

Er Nutfield...as I'm sure you do realise I'm not advocating children are chained down, but that *some* parents take sensible steps to stop their kids running around inside a cafe like it is a playground.

Why always this persistence in ignoring what is being said?
Convenient point-scoring as usual.

It just annoyed me to see the same old glib answer ie that anyone who is affected by the behaviour of a selfish few (no I'm not going to blame the children) should be banished elsewhere - in this case into the conservatory.

just a joke, seeformiles. No offence intended.

Our friends at the Tewkesbury Lodge Estate Residents Association inform us there is to be a public meeting in the Dutch Barn, Horniman Gardens, at 2pm on Sun 27nd April.

The plans for the Gardens will be available for viewing, and after a presentation from Museum staff, there will be an opportunity to ask questions.

Refreshments will be available. Everyone welcome.

For more information on what will be discussed see this.

Just read this interesting thread on our neighbours' site

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/...p?5,117947

and it got me thinking in advance of Sunday's meeting, which I unfortunately can't make, about the frequent occasions last summer when dogs in the Horniman Gardens caused me stress. In my humble opinion in this idyllic little park, dogs and people (especially little ones) do not mix.

Last year there were frequently yoof in there with terrifying terriers - very strong scary dogs they clearly couldn't handle. Shrubs and trees were stripped of branches and bark by the ONLY training they did seem to get - for their jaws by hanging the dogs from trees - yes, true and all the better to clamp round human flesh. I frequently saw (and intervened with) less unapproachable looking owners letting their dogs poop on the lower field and not pick it up. These concerns have been multiplied ten-fold by having a curious energetic toddler who can't tell a poop from mud and thinks all dogs are like the cute puppy on Big Barn Farm.

I KNOW there are considerate dog owners who will be irate at the suggestion and who have spent time training their dogs and who do pick up their poop etc etc but in the absence of any easy way to distinguish them my suggestion is to BAN all dogs from the Horniman. Get a good little swing park in the Horniman, turn the Triangle into a dog zone where they can fight and **** all day long and stop causing the neurotic non-dog owning majority so much anxiety.

Is there any way this could be put this on the agenda for Sunday?

If they are hanging their dogs from the trees they are training them to fight. You should report this to the Police/RSPCA for investigation.

Or alternatively, keep the kids on harnesses to stop them picking up poop and banish them to the Triangle where there's already a perfectly good swing park to stop the neurotic non-childrearing majority from being disturbed by squealing kids.

The majority of both parents and dog-owners are polite, pleasant, clean up after their respective charges and don't cause a problem to other users of the park. It seems harsh to penalise either of these groups and banish them to the less pleasant surroundings of the triangle for the sins of a few.

Perhaps we just need an effective way to reporting anti-social behaviour so they can be removed from the park. Ye old park-keeper perhaps?

I do use the Horniman Gardens regularly in the summer and can honestly say that I wasn't caused stress by any dog-owner. Any poop was promptly picked up and they never rampaged through my picnic. On the other hand, I did have a few accidentally mishit footballs whack me but, tongue-in-cheek first paragraph aside, I wouldn't suggest banning kids as a result. The Gardens are public places and I don't expect the same level of privacy and behaviour as I'd get in a private garden.

So you in your regular trips to the park you never came across teenage kids getting dragged along by an aggresive looking cross-breed? Well I must have been frequently unlucky. Not sure how you can equate kids mishitting footballs and squealing with an unprovoked savaging by a dog trained to injure - as per the link.

Vipes, I should think that this link below, provided by admin, may give you an opportunity to get your concern/proposal on this Sunday's agenda.

It's highly likely that this Sunday's meeting is chiefly about the presentation of the plans for the garden by Museum staff and then an opportunity to ask questions about the plans.

Reading the Horniman Gardens development page on the link below I observe that one of the areas they are considering is ?Re- landscaping some areas to provide quiet areas, activity areas and better picnic spaces.?

This may be the part of their strategy that appeals to you and hopefully will cause you less stress this coming summer.

In your absence, you may find another forum reader who is attending Sunday's meeting, and who feels passionate about banning dogs, to step forward and raise this in the question time?

(The quote above was lifted from the Sun 27nd April 2pm: Public Meeting re Redevelopment of Horniman Gardens thread.)

Perhaps I have been lucky but I've obviously missed them - or sit in a different area of the Gardens.

I did say that part of my post was tongue-in-cheek but while I deplore aggressive dogs and feel dreadfully sorry for the child who was attacked, I do also believe that the majority of dog-owners are responsible and don't want aggressive dogs so I'd have to disagree with a proposal to ban all dogs. And no, I'm not a dog owner.

You haven't been attacked or threatened by any dog in the Horniman. You've just seen some which made you stressed. I wasn't comparing the equivalent dangers, I was merely pointing out that what stresses/irritates one person may not bother another.

Unless there's been a change since I last went to the park, dogs are only allowed off the lead in one area of the park, the section with the concrete at the bottom corner. Elsewhere dogs have to be kept on a lead. This arrangement always seems to have worked quite well in the past, and I have never been bothered by dogs. I certainly wouldn't picnic in the field where the dogs run free. This arrangement seems to keep everyone happy, although I accept dog owners need to abide by the rules for this to work, and for the most part it does.

I do not wish to be controversal ( heaven forbid ) but I would welcome ban on dogs in se23

Times I have trodden in dog mess.

I am of course waiting for the outburst from canine owners.

In theory yes dogs are only supposed to be off the lead in the back section of the park, (and so I always stay away from that area), but I've frequently come across dog poo in other areas which suggests that there are plenty of dog owners who are either letting their dogs off the lead in the non-designated areas, or letting their dogs poop whilst they are on the lead and not picking it up.

I haven't come across any aggressive dogs in the Horniman gardens personally, (although I have come across them elsewhere in Forest Hill, and as I also have a curious and fearless toddler I am quite wary of them - particularly as one of those bull mastiff types almost went for my daughter not long ago. Luckily it was on a lead, and I was standing next to her, or I dread to think what could have happened).

It does seem a difficult combination though - a family-friendly museum, and a dog-exercise area!! Especially when the Horniman Park isn't exactly massive.

And as for the Triangle playground being 'a perfectly good swing park' I wouldn't call it that! Its adequate, but could certainly do with a bit of a revamp!

Not sure about a postcode-wide ban Brian and dog mess is infuriating but only life threatening when you eat it. I agree it's too small a space for excercising dogs and it renders a whole area unsuitable for kids. The museum DO need to decide who they prioritise. However, I have a nagging suspicion that appeasing the many dog-lovers within the vocal and disproportionately powerful Tewksbury Lodge Residents' Association (under whose banner, I note, the meeting on Sunday is arranged) plays no small part in any decision the musem might make about this.

No I'm talking most here about the unpredictable impulsive sharp-toothed bags of mongrel muscle that tug along their delinquent owners (leads make no difference here Sue). I and my wife came across them in the Horniman repeatedly last summer so looks like we have been repeatedly unlucky.

Attacks by these dogs are up 40% in the last 5 years and (Applespider) I have been run at by these dogs twice while running and it's downright scary. This isn't about "privacy" it's about safety. There is little police can do to intervene unless there are repeated attacks by the same dog or a one off attack that leads to death or near death - let alone much a park keeper can do. What criteria would you suggest for excluding these dogs? You say behaving antisocially. Not sure this is precise enough to allow park keepers to feel confident letting in docile Labrador and then barring snarling pit bull cross.

There is one workable solution. Ban them all. Send them over the road. What do dogs care if their surroundings are "unpleasant"? Anyway it's supposedly pleasant enough for small children. You are equating the rights of dog owners and parents Applespider and I'm sorry but it's another example of our country's bizzare and often contemptuous attitude to children.

Guess what? The residents living around the triangle park certainly WOULD care if there was any serious chance of it being turned into a dog toilet I can assure you of that much.....

Maybe Brian is onto something...