One last attempt.

1. I didn't say that families had improved security at games. I said that improving security by targeting trouble-makers rather than coralling them into separate areas had allowed families back. With a generally less antagonistic environment, overall trouble had decreased.

2. Once again, you are confusing the issue of bad parenting and the need for adult-only drinking establishments. The point is that the latter only fuels the problem with alcohol in this country that most contributors here want to see the end of. Maybe your solution to rowdy drinkers could be applied to rowdy kids/families. Maybe parents who cannot control their kids should be dealt with by "the management" (in fact I would guess they are).

In this way, I repeat, pubs are no different to any other public place, and by the same token should also not be places well behaved kids should be excluded from.

3. I don't tune out my daughter's voice (with or without foibles). Instead, I listen to her and talk to her. Instead of ignoring her and therefore encouraging her to raise her voice to attract attention, she now feels part of the conversation and is very well behaved in pubs and other public places.

Now, I (and others by the way) have already accepted your point about bad parents / annoying children and the rights of anyone (childless or otherwise) to be able to have some degree of privacy from loud noises of any kind (and that should include annoying laughing/shouting/arguing adults as well as children).

Would you do the same for those who think that social places like the pub are for the whole community and not just adult drinkers, and that maybe (just maybe and no stronger) that by making them proper family places where BOTH adults and children are encouraged to act responsibly around alcohol, we might take a small step forward to making Britain a happier and healthier place to live?