| Author |
Message |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, 22 April, 2006 - 06:11 pm: | |
So how does it sound?
Following an excellent suggestion from the Sydenham Society, is there anyone interested in setting up an equivalent society in/for Forest Hill? I gather that any such group can co-op itself to the Civic Trust and get lots of support and information that way. There is already a similar group in Brockley, Brixton, and Dulwich.
So what do you think? Any takers? |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 09:06 am: | |
Great idea. Would this be under the wing of the Sydenham Society, or an entirely new group? |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 09:17 am: | |
Sorry, just saw the other thread. Still worth answering here, perhaps.
What I understand to be the case: Although the Sydenham Society covers SE23, the issues in our locale are not their primary concern and they do not have the resources to give them the attention that the issues deserve. So Forest Hill residents unite, and make a difference.
All of this plus practical support from the well-established Sydenham Society. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 10:43 am: | |
Roz, I would be very delighted to join such a group so I could be directly involved and responsibile for how Forest Hill develops. I have full time work committments but can be flexibile and would find the time to help setting up the society and decide priorites. I have never done such a thing but I guess if we have at least a dozen people willing to form the group we could then organise our first meeting. Any good ? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 12:24 pm: | |
Excellent start! I think we need a few more people, as you say 12 is a reasonable number,
( nine more then!) and someone who is willing and able to be the ' start up ' champion, then we should be in business. I personally hesitate from taking this on as I know what I have failed to do in the past and need to be realistic. It would be good also to have people who are familiar with and comfortable with company structures, meetings, registration, memorandum of articles, etc ( or is it the other way round), and probably an accountant. The Sydenham Society have an excellent accountant/administrator so I don't know if he would have the capacity to operate for us also.
Any more interested? |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 02:03 pm: | |
Yes, although it might be worth starting off under the wing of or bolstering the Sydenham Society? |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 02:25 pm: | |
6 of us, it is a start. I shall get in touch with the Sydenham Society personally in the next few days.I do feel a little misplaced as it seems that many of you on this forum have been speaking to each other reporting on local government and community issues for a long time. Comparatively my knowledge is limited. I can offer my good will and my determination to try and make Forest Hill a better and even more pleasant place to live. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 03:00 pm: | |
Count me in. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 23 April, 2006 - 07:35 pm: | |
Does this mean we are going to have to lose our cybercover and actually reveal who we are?
Have I upset anyone on here recently? Anonymity has its benefits- you can say what you think and get away with it.
If you see someone at a meeting wearing a paper bag on her head, its me... |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 10:00 am: | |
A Forest Hill Society is a great idea. I'm in. |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 10:47 am: | |
I'd be happy to help out with a website when the time comes. Can't claim to be the worlds best designer but I can certainly get a basic site up and running. |
Webmaster
Joined 01-01-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 11:55 am: | |
Would be pleased to devote a new section of se23.com to the cause free of charge, and handle any privacy requirements. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 12:47 pm: | |
Sounds Good to me. I know Syd Society prints a nice quarterly magazine but no reason why we could not at first compile on line |
Ophelia
Joined 18-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | |
The Sydenham Society magazine is delivered by volunteers. It's included in the subscription to the Society which is only £6 per year. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 01:35 pm: | |
Yes I have been a member for years. I believe the subscribers number about 1300 but could be wrong so income about GBP 7800.00 per year.Pat T may be able to confirm |
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 02:41 pm: | |
What a positive thread this has become!
Sydenham Society has just under 1100 members - last year's income was just under £4000 - Membership is £6 for individual (and partner) or £5 concession. The newsletter costs us about £2200 p.a. and is a very important way of keeping our membership informed about what goes on locally.
We are a not for profit organisation with a constitution (we amended the basic Civic Trust constitution to suit our circumstances). We are unincorporated - so we do not have to comply with Companies House regulations - neither do we have charitable status. We do however publish our audited annual accounts in the newsletter and we do hold an AGM.
More than happy to assist in whatever way possible - preferably not this side of 15 May as we are working full out to get our Proofs of Evidence ready for the Public Inquiry into the proposal for an out of centre Retail Park at Bell Green. These must be ready for posting by the end of the previous week. Apart from 15 and 17 May I would be very happy to meet up to discuss the way forward. Does anyone know of a friendly venue ? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 04:55 pm: | |
Sydenham society was very effective at lobbying against the Crystal Palace development - respect!. I believe that there is also a Dulwich Society. Living in UDB it would be a difficult choice of which one to join!
Hornimans open their Dutch Barn for meetings, us in the posh estate have our AGM there and doubt whether they charge (much), will make enquiries. |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 05:35 pm: | |
Let's keep this momentum going!
If Sydenham Society, for our purposes Pat, can help after the 15th May, should we set a date for an organisational meeting? That way we can see how many of us are serious, brainstorm ideas, and maybe even exchange real contact information! We need to see what sort of talent we have among us; as Roz said, accountancy will be key.
Dates, anyone? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 07:48 pm: | |
I think this is a great idea, but we do need to get involvement of others in the local community outside this forum.
I would suggest inviting representatives from the Tewkesbury Lodge Residents Association (to which Baggydave is referring) other local residents associations to the meeting. A Forest Hill Civic Society must not be seen as a threat to existing residents' associations but as a complimentary way to represent the views of the wider area. It is worth stating this from the outset so that nobody thinks that we are trying to take over existing residents associations, but a society is needed for all of Forest Hill - from Kirkdale to Catford Bridge and Honor Oak to Mayow Park.
I think it is very exciting to see that people believe in Forest Hill and are willing to get involved to make it better. |
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 09:45 pm: | |
Last November each ward was given £5,000 to spend as it wished, a sort of Community Chest. Think it's the ward councillors who decide where the money goes. A Forest Hill civic trust could become involved either as recepients or with suggestions? |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 10:10 pm: | |
I am so happy to see such a response. It all started with some more disillusioned messages about the current state of Forest Hill as usual but this time we may actually do something about that ! Many people have shown interest, it s very positive.
I mentioned contacting the Sydenham Society but they have contacted us !!
Now attempting to set the date for our first informal meeting:
Preferences
1/week day or week end
2/daytime or evening
Could you spare one more minute of your time and send a message with one of each prefences ? We can then do the maths and suggest a suitable date and time after May 17th. And Yes, as Michael says, let s spread the word in the mean time outisde the forum. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 24 April, 2006 - 10:51 pm: | |
Weekday evening pls |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 01:28 pm: | |
Hi, a weekday evening would be preferable, preferably not Mondays for me but will accommodate what the majority want.
I think one of our first tasks should be to 'map' our area so it is reasonable in geographical terms, ie not too small,not too big, degree of overlap with other areas, ie Syd Soc, Brockley Soc and Dulwich Soc. I would have Catford Bridge was a bridge too far, personally as this is surely 'Catford'? And do we include Honor Oak? Would appreciate some advice from the Syd Soc as to how they approached their boundary setting. Resources have been mentioned, and if we are going to have to get into voluntary leafletting and covering all ground in respect of monitoring planning applications, then we need to be realistic. Presumably we could still comment on adjacent areas applications if they likely to impact on our area, ie traffic flow, etc. What does everyone think.
Re venue, I am happy to contact the Dartmouth Arms re a venue for our first meeting. Any objections to this? Re timing, how do you feel about w/c 22nd May, when Pat may be free to attend? |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 02:13 pm: | |
Roz
Thanks for your help. If Dartmouth Arms better bring my credit card.
Re Boundries surely SE 23 no more no less and of course HOP should be included this is not a real suburb but part of SE 23. Were it not for the station would not get separate mention |
Kk
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 02:45 pm: | |
I'm more often a lurker than a poster on this site but I'd like to come along! And I'm with Brian on HOP, not biased by the fact that that's where I live naturally.....
I think a couple of my neighbours could also be interested in attending would that be ok? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 02:57 pm: | |
The problem with the boundaries being SE23 only is that Forest Hill pool and shops in Dartmouth road are used by people living in SE26 around Sydenham Park and Thorpewood.
The Catford end should stop at the SE23 boundary (which is more or less what I was suggesting) as is the case with Mayow Park, which I believe is the boundary with SE26. But just like Sydenham Society has members in FH, we should not exclude Sydenham people from the FH Society.
Basically we are talking about the Forest Hill and Perry Vale wards, so we may be able to double dip into the community chest! |
Kk
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 03:01 pm: | |
I'm in the Crofton Park ward, can we triple dip? |
Marianne
Joined 01-07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 03:08 pm: | |
Good luck with the boundaries. Would just like to point out that although I live just off Dartmouth Road near Sydenham Girls School and Sydenham Police Station, I come under the SE26 postcode although Dartmouth Road is marked SE23 all the way to the roundabout at Kirkdale (past where I live!). So I officially live in Sydenham but am in Forest Hill ward when voting. |
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 03:14 pm: | |
w/c 22 May fine - but not Monday or Friday evening - but will need to get it firmed up in my diary fairly quickly.
Sydsoc boundary is simple - SE26 (in both Lewisham and Bromley) and "adjoining parts of SE23,and any other relevant adjoining areas" - I quote from our Constitution.
It is quite realistic to be able to comment on adjacent areas - FH Pools and Library are used by residents in both SE23 and 26. Likewise Sainsbury's, the stations, Kirkdale Institute, local parks etc.
With a second society with an equal interest in overlapping boundaries and wanting to maintain and improve community facilities it would be more than reasonable to ensure that good communications exist between the two. I would expect that a number of residents would want to be a member and support both organisations. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 03:31 pm: | |
Quite. I would think the two could be informally associated and hopefully co-operate and assist each other. |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 04:43 pm: | |
Evening during the w/c 22 May sounds perfect, and I too would prefer Tues-Thurs, but I want this to happen so much I would turn up pretty much any time!
I also agree that inviting members of other adjacent societies in very important; is someone able to do this? Others seem to have much more first-hand knowledge of these than I, but I am happy to help in any way that I can to make sure the right people get asked and nobody gets left out. |
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 06:12 pm: | |
May I dare to suggest that you walk before you start running? Let's all meet, introduce ourselves, see what skills are available.
The embryonic FH Soc will need a Chair (I think there are one or two possible candidates at this stage!). It will need a treasurer (and a bank account in due course)and someone who will take responsibility for looking after the membership.
It will also need someone with ability to read development plans (if you want to keep an eye on what is in the pipeline for SE23)and get to the Town Hall during office hours. This is probably one of the first things an FH Soc will need to do - set up a planning sub-group.
Although not a full time job, the setting up of a civic society will need some time and commitment. It would be a good idea to work out the aims and objectives, and then a draft constitution - no problem from us if you want to plagarise Sydsoc's Constitution.
When there is consensual agreement about the way forward an inaugral meeting can be called. This could happen within a few weeks or after a few months.
Publicity will also be essential - e-mail is good for starters - but you will need to reach out to the whole community before long. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 10:21 pm: | |
We have a few more people who should give us their date/time preferences to go ahead but I would like to suggest:
Thursday 25th May. The time should not be a problem.
I am perfectly fine with the Dartmouth Arms and if Roz still wishes to contact them, that would be perfect. This is just our first meeting so the venue at this point does not matter as long as it is in Forest Hill.
May I suggest that each and one of us write a brief list of their skills and their potential contribution to the society. Also a few points about why we want the society and what we want from it. I may sound patronising but I noticed that there are many passionate and fiery people on this forum and althought debate is a very powerful verbal tool, it can be time consuming and risky. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 April, 2006 - 11:30 pm: | |
I do not think we should appoint a chair or other officers prior to the first meeting, when we can elect people (who may not have even read this forum and have real names). However, a chair and officiers of a "constitutional committee" seems in order - purely to setup the society, and it seems clear who some of these people should be.
Once we have agreed on a day (Thursday 25th May sounds like a good day to me) and a venue, we should publicise the meeting on local noticeboards (i.e. Sainsburys and local schools), other web sites, local residents associations, grafitti at the station, as well as speaking to our neighbours. But I think the hardest thing to do at this point is get a venue - Roz I think you voulenteered for this role :-). If you need some more ideas for venues I have a few and I am sure others do too. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2006 - 08:38 am: | |
I agree with you Michael about the set up idea. Maybe we should also write a very small feature article in the local press and newspapers ( generally free and distributed regularly) to announce the creation of the Society and welcome new members. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 26 April, 2006 - 04:21 pm: | |
Like a few other people crawling out of the woodwork, I'm normally a reader rather than a contributor to the Forum. However, I would like to support a Forest Hill Society and will do my best to attend the meeting on Thursday 25th. I live at the Honor Oak end of Forest Hill. |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 April, 2006 - 09:09 am: | |
When the venue and time and date is finalised for the first meeting, we should start a new tread titled "Forest Hill Society, Inaugural Meeting" or something similar. So it alerts any other people who want to get involved. And it doesn't get lost at the bottom of this thread.
We should also set up an agenda. Maybe start with articles of business and organisation, which has already started at this thread.
I don't think the FHS will be successfull if at the first meeting 12 people starts shouting about the Pool, Heathrow Flight Path, traffic calming ect.
After the first meeting, which will essentially be an introduction and a clue to who will emerge as leaders. (again already evident in this thread)
Maybe we should agree to have themes (and or sub-goups) for each meeting. For example: next meeting, we shall discuss the Pool. Next month, we shall discuss Heathrow flight path. etc... |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 April, 2006 - 10:07 am: | |
Well, I think you have to agree the remit. My own opinion is that we should concentrate on the built environment of Forest Hill - which would include things like planning, trees, regeneration, amenities / lack thereof now due to council gross incompetence, etc. Quite wide already! |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 April, 2006 - 04:12 pm: | |
I will do my best to attend. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 April, 2006 - 05:10 pm: | |
I have just spoken to Michael Richards, the owner of the Dartmouth Arms. He is supportive of the idea of a setting up a Civic Society, and would be willing to accommodate a group ( 20 max) earlier in the week, starting at 7pm-7.30pm. Later in the week/evening becomes too difficult,as it would for most venues as they tend to start getting busier. There is another bar area near the restaurant which he could set aside for us- there will be a bit of music and noise from the kitchen, but we should be fine. Its non smoking, unlike the front bar.
I suggest we buy lots of drinks to show our gratitude!
How does everyone feel about that? This suggestion for the inaugural meeting would therefore be arrivals from 7pm onwards for a 7.30pm start, Tuesday 23rd May. If agreeable and if you think we will have no more than 20 people then I will confirm with Michael. If you think we will have/ought to have more than 20 people at the first meeting, then we need to rethink the venue. In any case, we can't take this venue for granted and will probably need to put out feelers elsewhere once we know what we want and need.
Granted also we want to maximise involvement but this is just a start up/framework meeting and it may be difficult to be productive with large numbers of people.
Views appreciated. Hopefully, Pat, you would be able to attend, as your experience and advice would be appreciated. |
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 April, 2006 - 05:33 pm: | |
Thank you for the invite and happy to put the 23 May in my diary, if that is the majority's preferred date. I am also keeping clear 24 and 25 May until meeting is finally agreed with everyone.
I think the idea of a smaller initial meeting is probably better. I have counted 16 posters on this thread - a number of whom have indicated their wish to become involved. If everyone comes then you are not far off filling up the DA's small bar area? |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 28 April, 2006 - 06:35 pm: | |
I am able to attend on the 23rd of May, and agree that more than twenty at the first meeting would be counter-productive.
I imagine most people would want to wait until something solid is established anyway before deciding whether to join. Since frequently many more people commit than actually attend, I believe we will be lucky to get close to twenty. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 28 April, 2006 - 07:53 pm: | |
I have met Saskia, head of The Civic Trust yesterday ( by the way,sha has talked very highly of Pat!) and got plenty of information and a few ideas. I would really love to attend the meeting but may not be able as I have too much work on that particular evening at least until 8.30. What a shame. I will confirm my presence/absence during the week. Is this acceptable ? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, 29 April, 2006 - 12:04 pm: | |
Yes, I think we will have a few weeks to finalise the attendees.
Any other views on 23rd May? I propose to wait until next Tuesday for people to respond before getting back to Michael to confirm.
Have a good Bank Holiday. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 29 April, 2006 - 01:44 pm: | |
Tuesday 23rd fine by me. But not Wednesday 24th. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 01 May, 2006 - 11:44 am: | |
Forest Hill Day is on 11th June in the Horniman Gardens. It occurred to me that it may be an idea for the fledgling Forest Hill (Civic?) Society to have a stall at this so that we can formally launch our group, and give out as much information as we can, and perhaps get people to sign up as prospective members on the day.I don't think we will be in a position to take membership fees, but at least it may give us a mailing list. And its free.
All we will need is a table, some flyers/posters to give out to people, a means of communication so that people can respond ie phone number, email address, postal address, etc, and of course a rota of some willing volunteers. Sponsors for the printed material( ie local businesses - would be good) ie they get free advertising. Could be fun.
We will need at the very least by that time to have agreed on the following basics, which we could achieve at our May meeting;
a) Name. Do we want a Forest Hill Society or a Forest Hill Civic Society. The latter may come across as a bit stuffy and put people off. Maybe other alternatives?
b) Geographical area. We ought to have a map defining the boundaries of the area we cover.
c) General aims and objectives and reasons for being etc.
All of course subject to formal decision and amendment once the group is properly established, but at least its a start.
Any views/comments? The Webmaster has kindly offered to dedicate a section of se23.com to this group, so it would be good to have reached agreement on something with him by the end of May so that we can go live on this also 11th June.
Cheers, |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 03 May, 2006 - 08:42 pm: | |
All gone quiet on this, hope I haven't bored anyone. I propose to confirm 23rd May at 7pm with the Dartmouth Arms tomorrow. Suggest people gather from 7pm for a 7.30pm start to the meeting. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 03 May, 2006 - 09:32 pm: | |
I'll get there as soon as I can, Roz, though it probably won't be on the dot of 7.30. I like the idea of having a presence at the Forest Hill Day. |
Applespider
Joined 26-02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 03 May, 2006 - 11:53 pm: | |
I'd love to participate but am unfortunately on holiday for the meeting. I'll be sure to stop by the proposed stall in the Horniman though on Forest Hill Day (and yes, you can add me to the crowd of people who appear to have been lurking rather than posting) |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 11:59 am: | |
Not boring at all, Roz; you just gave us something to think about. I think your proposals are all sound ones, and will think about the points prior to the first meeting. |
Blushingsnail
Joined 21-12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 12:49 pm: | |
I'd like to be involved too! 23rd May is fine for me. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 01:44 pm: | |
Hi
Yes I will try to attend. 7am start appreciated . |
Kk
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 02:10 pm: | |
Roz - not bored me either. 23rd May is fine, I'd rather go with your 7 p.m than Brian's 7 a.m. though! |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 09:59 pm: | |
Would it be worth invited one person from the Sydenham Society to advise on organisation and set up for the first meeting. Or would this over complicate things? I think the 23rd is good for me. I will know better closer to the date. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 May, 2006 - 10:20 pm: | |
I think the illustrious Pat T is going to come along ? |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 08:36 am: | |
Finally opened my copy of Living South & found a very positive short article on societies around the area. Page 16. Mentions Pat T and credits the Sydenham Society with saving Forest Hill Pools (alas, would that the story ended there!) and working towards bettering FH station. |
Pattrembath
Joined 04-05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 09:02 am: | |
Good morning and, yes, I've been invited and the date is in my diary.
Re "saving Forest Hill Pools". That was last time they were threatened with closure in 1996. |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 09:15 am: | |
It is to the Sydenham Society's credit, whenever the date. Thank you for clarifying, and for giving us your time on the 23rd. |
Stuart
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 03:29 pm: | |
Is it OK if I feature the event on foresthill.org.uk? It was originally set up in the hope that some civic minded folks might want to participate, but that didn't materialise. Great if a FHS did take off ... |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 03:41 pm: | |
Given some of the comments on the election thread, perhaps it should be made clear from the outset that the society is to have no political affiliations? Should help the society to maintain good relations no matter who is in power. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 07:10 pm: | |
What comments on the election thread are those, Simon? |
Penelope
Joined 04-05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 08:30 pm: | |
How many have you got for 23rd May? May I come along too? |
Bryan
Joined 01-08-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 09:02 pm: | |
Political affiliations of some contributors e.g Roz, are clear from some of the postings on the election thread. Nothing wrong with that.
I think Simon is right though to refer to the need for the proposed Forest Hill Society to be non-political in its stance i.e. non party political. Should a Forest Hill Society follow the route of the Sydenham Society then it would be strongly political - in the sense that would hope to exercise influence within the Council and elsewhere - but its policies, arguments, priorities, and campaigns would not be party based. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 10:19 pm: | |
I have been working on the constitution, basing it on the constitution of the Sydenham Society. Interestingly they did not feel the need to state that it should not be affiliated to a political party. I think it probably does not need stating in the constitution that it would not be affiliated to a political party, but Simon and Bryan are right to point out that it should not be party affiliated.
Until we have setup the society and had our initial meeting I think it is right that current councillors do not try to influence the formation of the society. Once we have had our initial meeting we will need a first AGM to elect officers and formally adopt the constitution. At this meeting I believe we should welcome any local residents including councillors, ex-councillors, mayors, and MPs as members.
Sydenham Society does not exclude councillors or other publicly elected officials from being officers of the society. Perhaps we should state this explicitly in the constitution?
I now need to find a way to share the DRAFT constitution with everybody for further comment. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 May, 2006 - 10:39 pm: | |
From what I heard at my meeting with the Civic Trust, it is surely best to state that the Society is non party political. Yet everybody should be welcome to participate, including ex MPs, ex councillors etc... By the way I did manage to reschedule my work so I can now attend the first meeeting on 23rd. I am really looking forward to it. I have already talked to many people in Forest Hill about the future creation of the Society and the response has been very positive. I think many residents will be very happy to get involved at some stage. There is still a little lack of "social and civic" awarness around here ( shown by the low percentage of voters as well !!). |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 06 May, 2006 - 10:30 am: | |
Michael, great work. Do you need webspace or were you thinking of emailing it? Either way, the Webmaster has offered space on this site, or it could be bcc'ed out with only one person holding the addresses. Let me know if I can help.
Millesens, I am delighted that you'll be attending. Your comments, if I remember correctly, provided a push for this, and you have contributed a good deal already.
Nobody's answered Stuart yet. Any objections to his posting info on the other site? Certainly when we've cemented a presence at Forest Hill Day that would be a good idea. |
Stuart
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 07 May, 2006 - 12:32 am: | |
Yes Calvin. IMHO it is best to use all the available media to make the idea & event known. The SE23.COM webmaster has made his support clear and so does foresthill.org.uk. We support each other and anything may benefit Forest Hill.
Do use us and if you want your own autonomous web presence - this can be arranged in minutes (no expense). Just let us know!
My only criticism is its taken so long to get this far ... |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 07 May, 2006 - 07:15 am: | |
Its wonderful to have the support of se23.com and foresthill.org etc,and these will be very valuable channels of communication. I would not however recommend advertising the first meeting which is essentially a planning and set up meeting,any more widely that we need to. If we are to specifically invite the Tewkesbury Lodge reps now then I suggest that they send one person only. We need to keep the numbers reasonable for this first meeting to ensure that it is workable, can allow for everyone to introduce themselves and speak, and make the necessary decisions about structure( they are not irreversible) and also so that we can fit into the Dartmouth Arms without trying their patience. They cannot accommodate a large group in one place and we probably only have until 9pm or so there before it starts getting busy and they need our tables.
So far I have counted 19 likely attendees as listed below- let me know if this is incorrect, but I suggest for the reasons stated above, we keep strictly to this list and no more for now. After this meeting we can sort out a venue for a larger group meeting. What say ye?
Roz
Calvin
Stuart
Millsens
Hilltop General
Brian
Elizabeth 25
Simon
Ophelia
Pat Trembath
Baggydave
Michael
KK
Loneranger
Stuart
Blushingsnail
Penelope
Ben- local resident.
Potential Tewkesbury Lodge Person. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 May, 2006 - 09:14 pm: | |
No one has added anything to my comments so shall I assume then that we are all in agreement to keep this first meeting strictly limited to the above 19 attendees? |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 May, 2006 - 10:06 pm: | |
Sounds OK to me. Don't like to exclude anyone of course but as you say we need to keep the numbers manageable at this stage. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 09:02 am: | |
I have contacted representatives from Tewkesbury Lodge and they have agreed to join us for the meeting on the 23rd May. (One or two people) |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 01:44 pm: | |
Sorry, but I'm going to be out of town on business now and can't come to the meeting on the 23rd. Look forward to reading the minutes and hope to be able to contribute to a future meeting. |
Glenn
Joined 11-05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 05:34 pm: | |
Hi,
My name is Glenn Ebrey and I am a reporter with the Lewisham News Shopper newspaper.
I am interested in doing a story on the residents' society you are planning to set up in Forest Hill. Could anyone reading this who is involved please drop me an email at gebrey@london.newsquest.co.uk or call me on 01689 885790.
Also if anyone reading this has any interesting events/stories from the Forest Hill area, please feel free to bring them to my attention.
Many thanks,
Glenn Ebrey. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 06:40 pm: | |
I had posted a few times on this thread and expressed an interest in attending on the 23rd. Any chance of squeezing in? I'm not included on the list of The Chosen. |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 10:18 pm: | |
Liz, I am sure that you were meant to be on the list! Still at 20, even if we were to have two Tewkesbury Lodge representatives. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 11 May, 2006 - 11:06 pm: | |
Glenn,
I think we need to wait until after our initial start-up meeting on 23rd May before we can really speak 'on the record' about the Forest Hill Society. Once we actually exist I am sure we would be delighted for some publicity to help spread the word.
We will publish minutes on this website and can arrange for the acting chair of the society to contact you.
For the moment anybody who does choose to speak to local press regarding the society is doing so in a purely personal capacity (as is this posting). |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 12 May, 2006 - 12:27 pm: | |
Sorry, Liz, my mistake. Of course there is room. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 12 May, 2006 - 05:29 pm: | |
Ta. I'm looking forward to it. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 19 May, 2006 - 07:15 pm: | |
I am flattered to be invited to an organisation set-up on a thread that I have not contributed to. Can SE23.com anoraks confirm that this is tne only thread that I have not added postings to? Ahh, now I have checked I made a half assed attempt on trying to get hold of a venue. Anyway I'll be there. Oh and a good walk last night and actually bumped into a fellow poster, but we will not reveal our identities. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 19 May, 2006 - 10:45 pm: | |
The meeting is confirmed for 7pm for 7.30pm at the Dartmouth Arms on Tuesday 23rd May. I believe we are now a group of around 20.
Many thanks again to Michael Richards and his staff for hosting this meeting.
I'll try and put a sign on the table so everyone knows which one(s) is/ are ours.
It may be a little noisy but I'm sure we will soon be absorbed in deep discussion and won't notice.
Look forward to seeing you all there on Tuesday. |
Penelope
Joined 04-05-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 20 May, 2006 - 01:59 pm: | |
Roz, thank you for organising.
Michael, will you bring copies of the SydSoc constitution and a proposed FH version for us to read? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, 20 May, 2006 - 07:44 pm: | |
Talking about revealing identities- who are we going to be on Tuesday- ourselves or our cyber selves? Do we want to be ourselves and keep our cyber id's secret?
For the Society records we probably need to be ourselves and take and record contact details - if we are going to post minutes etc on this website however we may want to ensure home addresses are kept hidden for data protection and privacy reasons, etc. Any views? |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 20 May, 2006 - 10:47 pm: | |
I've been looking at people in Sainsbury's for weeks wondering if I will meet any of them at this meeting on Tuesday!
I agree we must be our real selves at the meeting, and to reveal or not to reveal would be up to the individual. I imagine we would have to look into data protection, privacy repercussions, as minutes could be in the public domain anyway. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 21 May, 2006 - 10:16 am: | |
I will bring copies of both constitutions.
I was going to suggest that everybody bring a blindfold to protect anonymity, but I think a better idea is for the minutes for the website to be written with cyber IDs, with the exception of anybody who is elected to be an officer of the Society, where anonymity would not be appropriate. |
Blushingsnail
Joined 21-12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 22 May, 2006 - 01:29 pm: | |
Re: real identities in the minutes. Can't we use our real initials on the web version, and have a list of the full names on an off-line file copy? I don't want to be forever known as Blushingsnail! |
Melissa
Joined 08-05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 22 May, 2006 - 10:25 pm: | |
Surely one of these creative people can produce a cyberSE23 - then they can run in parallel - sorry to be frivolous on this matter, but couldn't resist... |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 23 May, 2006 - 12:41 pm: | |
I'm sure I posted a draft agenda on here somewhere and people responded with comments, but now I can't find it! Anyone seen it? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 23 May, 2006 - 12:54 pm: | |
http://se23.com/forum/messages/9/753.html?11472666 65 |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 23 May, 2006 - 05:17 pm: | |
Hello I am back and looking forward to this evening. I have no concerns regarding my anonymity. I had a good laugh whilst on the train to London Bridge in the past few days as I tried to memorise people's faces and imagined to find them again in the Dartmouth Arms tonight..... |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 24 May, 2006 - 09:50 am: | |
Official minutes will be available soon on this site but for now I wanted to thank everybody who attended yesterday's meeting which was a positive start to the Society.
I will be the Chairperson of the Steering committee for the Society, until we have an official inaugural meeting to which everybody in Forest Hill (and surrounding areas) are welcome to attend and vote for an offical chairperson, constitutionally elected.
If you wish to become a member of the Society or wish to contact me about any aspect of the Society my email address is michael.abrahams@ntlworld.com. Alternatively you are welcome to share your thoughts on this forum. Membership will be £5, but for the moment we need names more than money.
As well as members, we are looking for volunteers for almost anything, so if you are interested in becoming involved in the society I would love to hear from you. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 24 May, 2006 - 07:28 pm: | |
I took the minutes and will type them up and post them on here sometime this weekend. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 24 May, 2006 - 07:36 pm: | |
Actually, I'd better circulate to those who attended first in case there are errors.! Will post when they have been confirmed as accurate. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 25 May, 2006 - 01:19 pm: | |
Dear Michael
Sorry could not attend . Will contact you re joining |
Melissa
Joined 08-05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 06 June, 2006 - 04:43 pm: | |
Are the minutes available yet? I am interested to know what happened at the meeting. |
Mav
Joined 15-05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 08 June, 2006 - 11:17 pm: | |
I'm keen to see the minutes too. Given that there was a restriction on numbers attending the meeting, there must be quite a few of us in the same position. Surely it can't be too much to have the minutes approved and published two weeks after the meeting? It would be a shame to lose the momentum and possibly deter people from joining. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 June, 2006 - 09:52 am: | |
I am sorry minutes have not been made available yet. Below is a summary and is not the minutes from the meeting on 23rd May.
1) Introductions:
There were 15 people in attendance including two people from Tewkesbury Lodge Residence Association and Pat Trembath from the Sydenham Society.
2) Sydenham Society:
Pat explained what the Sydenham Society had done, what they are currently working on and how it works. Particular areas they are involved in are:
Library and Pools, improving stations in Syd. and FH, working with town centre manager, planning sub-committee, roads & transport sub-committee, and producing a regular newsletter for members.
Sydenham Society has many members who live or are interested in the facilities in Forest Hill and are happy to work with the Forest Hill Society.
3) Constitution
Some discussion took place on the draft constitutions. Amendments have been made and made available on SE23.com.
4) Structure of the Society
It was agreed that elections would need to take place at a General Meeting to formally elect the Executive Committee. Until a General Meeting is held a steering committee will be in place to move the Society forward – toward the General Meeting. This will involve publicising the Society, recruiting members, organising the General Meeting, and starting to work on some of the priority issues for the people of Forest Hill (although we recognise we have no authority from the people of Forest Hill).
It was agreed that the Steering Committee would be formed of the following Officers:
Michael Abrahams – Chair
Mary Anne – Vice Chair
Rosemary – Secretary
Richard - Treasurer / membership secretary
Liz – Communications Officer
Others present agreed to be on two sub-committees to discuss transport and planning.
(I have not named other present or used surnames for the officers of the Steering committee as this is not the minutes of the meeting)
5) Issues Arising
We would ask permission for a stall at Forest Hill Day (unfortunately this was not possible).
We would aim for a General Meeting in September (after the holidays and to give us time to publicise the Society and gain members).
A meeting of the officers of the Steering Committee took place on 2nd June to keep the momentum going and further meetings will take place before September.
-------------------------------------------------- ------
Anybody else who was at the meeting and remembers anything I have missed out is welcome to add to this summary as this is not the formal minutes – but we needed something on the forum due to popular demand. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 June, 2006 - 07:17 pm: | |
Apologies to Michael and everyone for the lack of minutes ,this is entirely my fault- I was away from home longer than I intended due to work committments. You are quite right about momentum. Michael has done such a brilliant job with his summary- however I will be finalising the full minutes this weekend and circulating the draft to the attendees before publishing them on this site. Regards, |
Mav
Joined 15-05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 23 June, 2006 - 02:19 pm: | |
A full month now and still no minutes?! |
Melissa
Joined 08-05-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 23 June, 2006 - 11:37 pm: | |
If the Society does not wish to publish the minutes that is up to them - but we were given the impression that they would be available... |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 27 June, 2006 - 10:58 am: | |
Formal minutes will be published very soon. Sorry for the delay. |
Webmaster
Joined 01-01-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 27 June, 2006 - 01:02 pm: | |
Minutes now received from Michael and available at www.se23.com/fhs |
Tim
Joined 22-06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 30 June, 2006 - 09:09 am: | |
in setting up a new voluntary group in Lewisham Borough there is an organisation, Voluntary Action Lewisham with offices in Catford, which is funded to advise groups on constitutions, setting up, governance, sourcing and applying for funding etc. It might be worth seeking advice in order to avoid common pitfalls/repeating mistakes made by others etc.
there are also extensive web resources on sites such as NCVO with information on setting up and running community groups and voluntary organisations.
good luck with the venture.
Tim |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 04 August, 2006 - 02:28 pm: | |
Two pieces of news from the Forest Hill Society:
1) We have set a date and venue for our first General Meeting. It will be on Monday 25th September at 7:30pm at the Friends’ Meeting House on Sunderland Road http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?pc=SE232QA
The main event of the meeting will be the election of officers for the Society. All members are welcome to attend, and can stand for any position on the committee (nominations must be received by 18th September).
2) I am delighted to be able to invite you to join Forest Hill Society. Please send me an email at michael@foresthillsociety.com and I shall send you a membership form. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 08 August, 2006 - 10:57 am: | |
There was a great response over the weekend from people wanting to join the Forest Hill Society. Many thanks to everybody who got in touch, and I look forward to hearing from more people who would like to join the Society. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 18 September, 2006 - 08:48 pm: | |
We have managed to distribute over 10,000 leaflets about the Forest Hill Society to houses in Forest Hill over the last two weeks. Thanks to all those people who have helped deliver leaflets. The response has again been great and the membership is growing at a very healthy rate.
Next Monday at 7:30pm we have the first AGM and we have a speaker from the East London line project coming to tell us more about the future of the East London Line. After the formal business is concluded we will be heading over the the Railway Telegraph for the informal part of the evening. I'm looking forward to the meeting and I hope to see you there. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 19 September, 2006 - 11:20 am: | |
I found a way to put the leaflet on the web myself in PDF format. If you did not get a leaflet or want another you can print it out at http://www.box.net/public/1cvfqz5dh3 |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 26 September, 2006 - 08:50 am: | |
Many thanks to the 150 people who attended the first AGM of the Forest Hill Society, quite a remarkable turn out.
I am pleased to say that I have been elected the chair of the Society for the next year, along with a large committee of people with lots to offer Forest Hill. Further information will be available in the minutes which shall available on the web in the near future.
I feel this thread has become a little part of history and shows what can be done when a few people want to do something. Clearly there are a lot of people who share the view that the Forest Hill Society can help improve the local area. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 26 September, 2006 - 01:21 pm: | |
Regret I could not find time to attend but fully appreciate all the people who managed to find the time. Hopefully can attend in future and many thanks again for all those prepared to give up their own time. |
Djnever
Joined 09-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 26 September, 2006 - 02:19 pm: | |
I second that, apologies I couldnt attend. That sounds like an amazing response, the leaflets were worth delivering!
Hope we can press the momentum & we could be a force to be reckoned with! |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 26 September, 2006 - 11:25 pm: | |
I was really sorry to see that the presence of our black community at the FHS first AGM was very meagre indeed. What a shame really, I am sure that the current se23 black population was not represented proportionally at all. There must be a very good percentage of black people living here. Have we failed to reach them with our channels (leafleting, ear to mouth, internet, etc...)? Is there a way we could get their attention to join in our debates, battles and interest in se23? Mine was just observation, maybe some of you on the forum can provide some explanation. Also, where was Mrs Julie Sutch, the South Lewisham Town Centre Manager ???? |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 08:02 am: | |
Whilst I agree that it would be great if the society was a cross section of society this is not easy.
Surely we must not fall into this trap. I am sure all black people have not simalar views the same as our native community not to mention our now very large Polish and Baltic Community.
Surely people
You could just as easily say how many Sun readers were there or how many with income below GBP 20k etc etc
The main thing is the people who join and turn up are keen to promote SE 23 for all its citizens ( sorry subjects cannot have citizens in UK ) |
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 09:35 am: | |
Brian - in what way is the black community not "native". I am very sure the intention was not racist but to suggest that someone is not English/British because of the colour of his/her skin is skirting dangerously close to being so! |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 10:17 am: | |
It risks being perceived as so, but if we leave political correctness and emotional language aside, then in fact the black community is not "native" to this country, generally having only been here 50 years or so at the most. However, this does NOT in any shape or form make them any less English or British!
It might be regarded as regrettable that the turn-out for the meeting did not precisely replicate in microcosm the precise composition of the SE23 population but as I understand it leaflets were delivered to practically every household. It is absurd and irresponsible to suggest that there was or could have been any discrimination or selectivity in this.
Perhaps you should discuss this with the (black) committee member who was elected, unless that's you - who knows, they might well tell you to stop being so patronising. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 11:12 am: | |
I was very pleased that the meeting was not 100% white and middle-class. Although a meeting like this is unlikely to ever truely represent all the diversity in Forest Hill (I don't think this could be done with just 150 individuals), we certainly did have a relatively diverse group in terms of age, gender, religion, race, and ethnicity. I suspect that the attendance at the meeting had greater diversity than the posters to this forum. But we do need to make sure that the Forest Hill Society is representative of as much of Forest Hill as possible.
I did get an email from Julie Sutch saying that she would not be able to attend the meeting but I will be meeting with her in the future. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 12:02 pm: | |
Well I am not a native. Despite being married to a British man and having lived and worked in the UK for more than seven years, I came from France and was born in northern Italy. My father had greek blood, my mother is of Eastern European Jewish descent. So in the family we moved about a lot, some times not by our choice. I love living in the UK, adore London and I chose to be in Forest Hill. When I joined this forum nobody ever objected to my presence. Yet I am sure my synthax and spelling mistakes showed that the English language was not my mother tomgue. When I joined the FHS steering commitee I was welcomed so didn t think that my dark but caucasian complexion and my continental accent were important. My point is, the black community is part of Forest Hill, whether they are native or not. Surely they have been living in this particular area for much longer than the recently eastablished Eastern Europeans. I am really not interested in being politically correct here, because I would be hypocritical and really racist if I did. Race, origins and backgrounds are all important factors but a community spirit is shared by a large variety of people living as a unit in the same area, sharing some of the same interests, views and surely wanting to be in a better place. I shall go and talk to a large group of black people meeting in Forest Hill weekly about the Forest Hill Society. I will get back to you soon on this. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 03:57 pm: | |
Minutes from Monday's AGM can be viewed at http://www.box.net/public/rk7cyyyet6 this includes questions to Nigel D'Souza that require further responses and which have been emailed to him. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 09:15 pm: | |
I apologise if I have offended anybody who was or was not at the AGM yesterday. I lack sensitivity towards some obviously delicate issues. It is no excuse of course. Please believe me, I had not intended to mean anything else than ask a simple question based on factual evidence. There was no judgement. There was no hidden agenda. Just a little simplistic approach to a very difficult subject. I have been advised by someone to avoid social and cultural diversity subjects, especially in the context of the Forest Hill Society. Surely you won t see my name in the Committee looking at social inclusion. You may all be reassured now.
From the general to the specific and single, Hilltopgeneral, how exactly did I suggest that "there was or could have been any discrimination or selectivity in this" (leafleting)? Your paraphrasing and misinterpreting skills are quite marvelous really. I am one of those people who did leafleting and door drops for the FHS so how could I possibly imply something like that myself? |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 27 September, 2006 - 10:30 pm: | |
"Have we failed to reach them with our channels (leafleting, ear to mouth, internet, etc...)?"
..but everywhere received leaflets?
"It is absurd and irresponsible to suggest that there was or could have been any discrimination or selectivity in this" was aimed as much as those who might get hold of your words as you. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 08:07 am: | |
Surely we are getting carried away with equal ethnic representation. As I said all ethnic groups , I would imagine , would not all share identical interests within the group.
Surely we should not get bogged down with PC so early in the proceedings .
Everyone in SE 23 should be very welcome to join whatever ethnic persuasion , even train spotters . |
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 11:24 am: | |
Brian, I was not having a go - and I actually agree with you that not all ethnic groups will share identical interests. Indeed, simply because a person has a certain ethnicity does not and should not mean that he or she speaks for a community - that's simply nonsense.
That said, I realy do believe that the words we use are phenomenally important. I am thoroughly white and middle class but I am not a native of this city or this country. Soemone of a diffeerent colour skin who was born and grew up here is a thousand times the "native" I am.
Oh, and HTG, I'm not sure whether your "patronising" comment was directed toward me, I suspect it was, but I wasn't aware that you had been given the monopoly on being patronising. I'll remember that for next time. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 11:35 am: | |
Bosco
Point taken . I certainly meant no offence by using the word native but fully understand that I might have inadvertently given some. If so I humbly apologise.
Let us forget the race issue and press on with the good work of the society |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 12:13 pm: | |
No, it was more about what appeared to me (quite possibly erroneously) to be the liberal angst of "not having enough black people at the meeting" and of the risk of further propagating the current tendency of excessive introspection on such issues.
It's open (and has been made open) to everyone. Those who are interested and able to come will do so. Why worry about who these people may be?
Enough anyway, let's move on. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 12:57 pm: | |
Changing subject entirely, seen that almost everybody here is apologising for some reasons and wanting to move forward.
I have noticed in the past few days that many trees have been cut down to the roots at the back of my garden. I was a little worried and called the Council. It appears that if there is no preservation order or the trees are not in a conservation area, anybody, council staff included, can take them down and not necessarily provide any explanation. When I expressed my sentiment on this policy, the senior member of staff I spoke to said something in the lines of "who cares". I realise that anybody has the right to do whatever they wish to on their private land, or almost, but what about the trees on council or public land. I had the optimistic view that any London borough would wish to maintain if not increase their green appearance by ensuring trees were maintained and new one planted on roads where local residents agreed to reinstate some “greenery”. Whilst from the train station towards the hill we have many conservation areas, a lot of tree lines roads, on the other side the conservation areas are very thin. There are beautiful wide roads with trees but some of them are Horse Chestnuts and already very ill. In the UDP action plan, Christchurch appears in Schedule 1A, under “Important Local Views and Landmarks” protected by Policy URB22. When I questioned the council manager about this he finally decided to do some thinking and said yard which are protected. I cannot believe adjacent roads lines with beautiful E. Christmas houses and beautiful trees are not on a conservation area. They definitely are of history local importance to Forest Hill. And they contribute to the general landscape of the church. I know many residents do not want to live on conservation areas because they may want to build an extension or put up a satellite receiver without having to fight so much for planning permission. There is surely a gap in the current policies. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 02:02 pm: | |
Baggy Dave would like to have the last word on how the society shold represent residents of the area:
A core value of the society must be our welcoming of the participation of all residents of Forest Hill and our respect for and encouragement of their freedom of expression. I'm sure fellow web users will stand by the ideals of inclusion and freedom of expression as essential values in a free society and that they may want to voice their support for these principles on the site. We see so many examples both worldwide and within our own country (including at this local level) of the repression of free speech that I feel that we can never underline this essential right often enough. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 28 September, 2006 - 02:38 pm: | |
Thank you Baggy Dave, marvellous. The last thing we need is some "censorship" act. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 29 September, 2006 - 07:26 pm: | |
Millesens - glad that I have some good support. I hate some of the level of censorship that I have witnessed in recent times. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 12:52 pm: | |
The new look www.foresthillsociety.com website is now live with the ability for me to update the site in minutes.
Commenting is switched off to encourage proper discussion on this site. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 01:02 pm: | |
Re latest magazine. As before very impressive. Only 1 thing are we so short of celebrities past and present that we feature a lady from Jews Walk , SE 26. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 01:48 pm: | |
Just to clarify the situation, SE23Living magazine is completely independent of Forest Hill Society, but is a great magazine and has helped promote the Society. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 01:53 pm: | |
Not just any lady either- it was Eleanor Marx. |
Councillorsusanwise
Joined 20-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 03:24 pm: | |
Those of us on the Perry Vale side of the station, but also SE23, are keen to receive the S23 Living magazine. I understand that this is meant to happen when income from sponsorship is increased to fund it. Is that right? It is indeed a great magazine. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 03:33 pm: | |
I got it this week on the Perry Vale side of the station. I was very pleased. I guess they are slowly expanding. |
Councillorsusanwise
Joined 20-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 05 October, 2006 - 04:00 pm: | |
That is good news |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 20 October, 2006 - 01:02 pm: | |
Travellers may have noted that the rotten and graffittoed timber panels on the footbridge at Forest Hill station have now been replaced with new painted steel panels, following FH & Sydenham Societies requests to Southern. |
Rob
Joined 23-01-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2006 - 12:42 pm: | |
Yes, I did notice the new panels. It's about time. I've complained to Southern numerous times about those panels, but to no avail. Well done.
Perhaps you could lobby Southern to replace/remove the depressing wire cage as well. Southern tell me that they plan to introduce more covered bridges, rather than remove them. But I have yet to see a footbridge roof that is more oppressive than ours. Why are we the only station on our line to have a wire cage? If Southern won't improve the station, at least they could be persuaded to make much-needed cosmetic changes such as these...
And while we're on the subject, why is the bridge a horrid grey? Southern's trademark primary colours would be much cheerier. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2006 - 12:53 pm: | |
Rob
I agree with you but suspect you will get nowhere with this.
They are worried about suicide's and vandals dropping bricks on trains |
Blushingsnail
Joined 21-12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 22 October, 2006 - 05:02 pm: | |
Re the footbridge at Forest Hill: apparently they had problems with school kids dropping things on the tracks, which is/was a problem particular to FH because of the number of school children who use the station. I understand the footbridge is the responsibility of Network Rail, not Southern, so I assume it's up to NR what colour they paint it. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 02 May, 2007 - 05:06 pm: | |
The Forest Hill Society has a general meeting next week (10th May) with the mayor of Lewisham speaking and answering questions.
There will also be an opportunity to discuss what you think the Forest Hill Society should be doing.
Further details are available at:
http://www.foresthillsociety.com/2007/04/mayor-to- speak-to-forest-hill-society.html
I look forward to seeing you there.
(I thought I would revive the original thread which began the formation of the FH Society here on SE23.com just over one year ago) |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 03 September, 2007 - 11:09 pm: | |
Forest Hill Society are planning our second pub crawl for Sunday 23rd September. This will start from the Capitol on London Road at 7:30pm.
For those of you on Facebook you can join the event at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=12273885645 or just come along in the evening for a few drinks with the locals. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 21 September, 2007 - 02:22 pm: | |
The Forest Hill Society AGM will be taking place on Wednesday, 3rd October at the Christian Fellowship Centre on Honor Oak Road (opposite Fairlawn School) at 7pm. Our guest speaker is Jeff Lowe from Havelock Walk who will be telling us more about the artistic side of Forest Hill. There will be an opportunity to discuss all the important issues for Forest Hill and to elect the new committee for the Forest Hill Society.
If you are interested in standing for the committee of the Forest Hill Society at the AGM and would like more information please contact me at michael@foresthillsociety.com
Members and non-members welcome. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 02 October, 2007 - 02:17 pm: | |
I just wanted to remind everybody about the AGM and I hope you will try to make it along tomorrow evening. There will be some biscuits and refreshments if that helps convince you!
This thread is where it all started so please show your support and join us tomorrow. |
Forester
Joined 04-02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 October, 2007 - 10:58 pm: | |
No comments about the AGM? I found Jeff Lowe's talk fascinating and his 'call to action' about the size of shop fascias inspirational. People like this are real gems for the community and deserve to be championed and highly respected by the council given the amount of credit they claim from his acheivements. I for one support one of his next projects to restore the original cobbling on Havelock Walk from the gross vandalism sanctioned by the council that has occured there. Everyone with an interest in SE23 should respond to Lewisham's current round of consulting. As I can't find them online can someone post the links on this string? |
Stevegrindlay
Joined 24-10-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 04 October, 2007 - 11:46 pm: | |
I think this is what you're after: http://tinyurl.com/3cwq3l, then follow the link for "online survey". You can also download the draft strategy. Responses must be submitted by 15 October |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 08:12 am: | |
This probably merits a separate discussion thread but having had a glance at this survey ( only a glance, its still only 8am!) I am disappointed but not surprised that F Hill does not feature in the list of development opportunities, or as a specific area needing investment, and there is only brief reference elsewhere to the station being a potential catalyst for local regeneration. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 09:09 am: | |
I find this document fairly pointless coming so soon after the Local Development Framework consultation, which contained much more information. The People, Prosperity, Place: Regeneration Strategy 2007-2020 seems to be more like a marketing document on Lewisham Council services and strategy already laid out, but not yet approved, in the LDF.
The LDF makes better mention of Forest Hill but it is actually quite good that Forest Hill is not seen as a major area of redevelopment, since we have just about enough housing in the area and do not need to see massive development. The exception to this is the area around the train station in both Forest Hill and Honor Oak. For Forest Hill there is the UDF from 2003 which continues to be supported in the draft LDF.
In the last few years we have seen an expansion to the Horniman, investment in the library, redevelopment of Sainsburys and the car park to the rear, and the area around Clyde Vale. All of these fit with the development plan. However, we are yet to see any real action by the council to regenerate Forest Hill town centre and redevelop the station area.
They are spending millions to realign the south circular at Catford so that it no longer goes between the two council buildings, but they are doing nothing about the bottle neck at Catford Bridge or the problems around Forest Hill town centre on the south circular. |
Councillorsusanwise
Joined 20-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
The South Circular is the responsibility of TfL and therefore the Mayor of London. At Lewisham Council, we do all possible to bring these traffic issues to his, and his officers', attention. However, it does unfortunately, take time.I would welcome any constructive comments on how to widen the road at Catford Bridge, or to cut down the volume of traffic in Forest Hill. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 12:34 pm: | |
You've been too long with Lewisham Susan, the lack of imagination and vision is starting to rub off on you.
1. Demolish railway bridge and replace with one whose abutments are further apart. Widen the road. Da-da!
2a. Ensure South London gets as much invested in its public spending as North London - i.e. that the railways get proportionately as much as the Tube. Improve links across South London by an intelligent review of the network and some judicious construction works so that it is possible to travel across the city without going via London Bridge, thereby reducing need to drive.
2b. Realign the South Circular so that it goes straight under the station, removing the hairpin.
Da-da! They should pay me for this. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 01:53 pm: | |
There are clearly only two options for more cars through Catford Bridge, either rebuild to whole area as suggested by HTG or allow secondary lanes through what is current Majestic Wine and a secondary bridge going alongside the existing bridge. Also remove the bus stops from on the bridge, this is not helpful.
In Forest Hill it is difficult to make a significant difference without removing the station but this is in the UDF developed by Lewisham. What I would like to see is some progress on this and whilst it is easy to say that it is TfL or Network Rail's responsibility, it has to be championed by the local council and councillors.
With regard to the station rebuild, I attended a meeting in March where Len Duvall and I made it clear that Lewisham council needed to facilitate a meeting of all stakeholders/property owners ASAP, to best benefit from the potential changes linked to the ELL extension. When I enquired about this in June the response I got from Lewisham Council was:
"I can advise you that there is no Council budget for design work for the station redevelopment, which is more a matter for Network Rail and the train operator, who are regularly updated about the Councils aspirations and opportunities for the station and surrounding area."
There was loads of money for Catford, Lewisham, and Deptford but Forest Hill has been in the plans for years and nothing has happened. How long should we expect to wait? |
Blushingsnail
Joined 21-12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 02:27 pm: | |
Further to some of the comments at the AGM about refuge bins and the possibility of a mural on the wall of WH Smith, I was flicking through a copy of Lewisham Life later that night and came across a small article about Artmongers, the creators of the ‘cow bins’ at New Cross and who have recently been working on a mural at Telegraph Hill. Their website www.artmongers.com shows a lot of their work, particularly outdoor murals http://www.artmongers.com/events.html; a bling bin http://www.artmongers.com/bin00.html, and decorated wheelie bins http://www.artmongers.com/bin07.html.
Something to bear in mind for FH town centre? |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 02:54 pm: | |
It seems that they are taking their time implementing the smaller changes already included in the UDF that would have such a visual impact on the Forest Hill town centre. And they dismiss any responsibility on the train station redesign, rightly saying it is for Network rail or whichever service operator to decide on expenditure. If I remember well we were promised around £ 800.000 to improve access to the station but this I am told will barely be enough for disabled lift and a lick of paint for re-branding. Without starting my usual whinging and moaning at the fact that Forest Hill is at the bottom of the list in this borough priorities despite its great potential, what can we do as a community to move things forward? There a huge amount of success stories out there about local groups "helping" their local government with outstanding issues. They require commitment and perseverance, I know but it would be worth it. Personally I would be happy with the following to start with:
- Shop frontage design control, implemented and not just nicely wrote on a piece of paper
- Street furnishing clean up (see pedestrian railing matching and painted, road and tourist signs tidied, council bins, etc)
- Commercial waste bins removed from main arteries in town (London road, Dartmouth road, Waldram Park, etc)
- A change in planning consent for strategic town centre locations ( so no more Morleys' chicken, non more betting shops, no more estate agents- I ve counted ten !!!- no more pound shops)
- Some sort of decorative planting in front of the station and on the railings at main traffic lights in front of WHS- see what they have done for years now in Upper Norwood, Peckham , Penge, etc..)
When I look at the new stations for some of the ELL stops north for the River I get really annoyed that we have to put up with our Portakabin. At least Sydenham and Penge West have period stations, if I remember well. They may not be the most functional designs but they look better than what we have. Forest Hill station constitute such a focal point for us, one can’t conceive how the town centre can develop harmoniously around such a monstrosity. |
Councillorsusanwise
Joined 20-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 02:57 pm: | |
with many thanks for the unsolicited personal comments from Hilltopgeneral-whoever you are-your proposals have already been suggested, as well as other rather more constructive ones, which is why I don't think anyone will pay you for yours.
As always it comes down to costs and who is going to fund them. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 03:05 pm: | |
Should one be allowed to post on this site if their written english language contains so many syntax, orthography and typing mistakes ? My apologies, hopefully the Forest Hill English Language Society won't ban me from posting in the future. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 04:46 pm: | |
I agree with Millsens that there are so many things that could be done in the centre with relatively little money. The Council's framework document from 2003 mentioned improved signage, recalibrating the pedestrian crossing at the station, decluttering re: street signage, bollards etc. And those bins - I agree - let's use the redevelopment of the pizza hut/oxfam site to find a way of hiding the dreadful things so it's not the first thing people see when they come out of the station. I think it's going to take the takeover of the running of the train station by TfL before anything's done about it, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for other things that could be resolved relatively cheaply. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 05:29 pm: | |
In an ideal world WH Smith would be demolished alongside the other shops on the left side of the station; of course the beloved portakabin would be the first to go. Then a station for rail, tube and bus services would be designed, the land reclaimed on the other side of the tracks, where the garage and MOT shop is, would be perfect to provide enough space for all the services to coexist and serve our masses of commuters. The new central station would include retail units and everybody would be so content, they could buy newspapers and skinny tall soy lattes before boarding their preferred means of transport. We wouldn’t need any of those inconveniently located bus shelters currently destroying the flow on the London Road. By then we would have finally found a solution for those refuse bins, the Pizza scooters parked on the pavements, etc. Now Councillorsusanwise will write that it has all been said before and that there is no money. Actually our money is going somewhere else. So I would settle for an Artmongers mural on WH Smith wall but really, where can we get the money? What about those entrepreneurs who wanted to build a hotel above/ around the station? Or anybody else who could make some money whilst partly fund our regeneration? |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 05:57 pm: | |
Was at Dog Kennel Hill School for Open House day - they built an entire new assembly hall and artblock funded largely by selling the space above the building to a social housing company. Couldn't something similar partly fund the station development? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 06:46 pm: | |
Some points:
1. When I used to come from the Garden of England on an old Midland Red coach to visit family in Cricklewood we always knew that we had arrived in London as the street scene was so grotty. So things haven't changed much in 40 years!
2. No matter how bad Catford bridge is for traffic, it was far worse before they changed the traffic management system (lights before St Dunstans). And that was pre-TFL days, so well done Lewisham.
3. At the end of the day we can talk for ever about what we like and want, but it will be mostly delivered through market forces. Unless we want to live in Pleasantville (it was called Bourneville in my day, where you weren't allowed any free thought). And we put our money where our mouth is and open a new business.
And no matter how bad the traffic is, at least we don't live in Bromley. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 07:09 pm: | |
..and that was the end of the thread, thank you for reading and posting. For those of you who wish to continue planning with me the Forest Hill Utopian Village, please don't give up,open a coffee shop, move to Catford to show you enjoy the decresed traffic or do something....we really don't want to upset Baggydave, his special powers can kill a thread within seconds... |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 07:18 pm: | |
It's nonsense to suggest a forest hill revamp will be delivered through market forces. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 07:20 pm: | |
..the station, that is. |
Forester
Joined 04-02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 08:04 pm: | |
I think the small, cheap improvements as suggested by Millesens can do a lot more good than they may seem at first glance relative to grand redevelopment schemes. The shop fascias, bins, scooters, etc, deteriorate the area's appearance significantly. As Jeff Lowe rightly said if you are a budding, ambitious entrepreneur are you really going to want to open shop in an area that is cluttered with these ugly things and appears to have an idle council planning department? I think not. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 08:30 pm: | |
I agree. A couple of weeks ago, a saxophonist was playing outside sainsbury's, and (and I know it wouldn't be to everyone's taste) but it really lifted the mood. The small things do add up. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 05 October, 2007 - 08:32 pm: | |
And why haven't these things been delivered if they've been in the plan adopted by the council since 2003? It's not a question of money - these things are not hugely expensive. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, 06 October, 2007 - 09:34 am: | |
We have had grand ideas before but no action. Yes little things can help but it will only be tinkering around the edges unless there is a concerted approach to change which gets all the key players on board. People will put up grotty signs because they do not largely have a feel for design, simply don't care or perhaps because they have no idea how to go about getting anything better. They will do what they need to maintain their business.
We must not condemn them for this but rather seek to promote the benefits to them of improving the entire area and give them an easier path to improvement. Many years ago I worked for Wandsworth Council where I visited businesses promoting grants for shop fronts and fascias etc. Do Lewisham not have the same?
We need active Town Centre Management who are available to and accountable to the public. We therefore need to actually see more of Julie Sutch, find out what she does and get her/her department to report and engage more with the community. The sad thing is that we have been saying and asking for stakeholder engagement for years and nothing happens. We continue to have erratic consultation about this and that but no continuity.
A Forest Hill revamp will certainly only be delivered via market forces however a suitable and receptive environment needs to be in place to encourage this. Hanging baskets and nice shop fronts may help encourage greater foot traffic for shopping but only a realistic and deliverable economic strategy will work. The question still arises as to whether the community can actually support so many retail businesses in Forest Hill; Dave Whiting has pointed out that there may be an oversupply in which case we need some lateral thinking as to how to replace vacant shops.
The local councillors have asked for ideas for the community chest of £10k- I think we should spend this on a commissioned report by consultants on an economic development and regeneration strategy/ feasibility study for Forest Hill. Anyone in agreement with this? |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, 06 October, 2007 - 10:28 am: | |
I don't agree with closing down shops because they're vacant. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy where shops close, they're converted for residential use, less people visit the area because the retail area is smaller, and when/if the upturn comes, there's no retail space for businessmen to rent/buy. This is an area where market forces should be left to itelf. However, footfall can be increased by promoting other aspects of forest hill, and the 2003 design framework does good work in this area, with a processional route up to the horniman, and parking/tree planting along dartmouth road with the refurbished pools as a destination point. I do agree with you, though, Roz, that there's a distinct lack of management re: forest hill centre in general. The same (good) ideas come up on this forum all the time, and there's never a word from councillors explaining why there seems to be such inaction. Whether or not they're doing their jobs, they're not explaining themselves very well at all. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 06 October, 2007 - 07:32 pm: | |
Back to my comment on market forces (from a realist, not someone who actually believes wholeheartedly in the Capitalist system)
There is only a certain amount that town planning can achieve. At the end of the day there has to be the demand (whether that be informed, or distorted as per the large supermarkets etc). Hence, whilst I am not the world's biggest fan of the YOHO (the pub on Brockley Rise) I have to give credit to the James's for studying their market and the demographics, doing an impressive promotion including use of this site, and putting on an eclectic mix of activities (still waiting for the morris dancing and trad pub games though). And of course being prepared to take a large financial risk.
BD spent time at Iceland (the company not the country unfortunately) and they were very business savvie, despite my preconceptions. They knew every high street in the UK and when I asked about Sydenham, where I lived at the present, they said 'not that race track' (well not exactly a 'race' is it), preferring Penge high street where people actually shop. I doubt if they would have thought much of Forest Hill.
I'd love a more attractive and exciting FH, just that sometimes we need a bit of a reality check. Anyway, once we have the ELL and become the New Hoxton no doubt this will be a well trendy place to live.
"I wont believe it" |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 07 October, 2007 - 06:13 pm: | |
Nevermodern, I do nevertheless there is a serious issue of oversupply of retail outlets in Forest Hill which will result in vacant properties or businesses which will come and go overnight and will not provide either a meaningful consumer environment nor do much for the local economy. We still need a full and realistic assessment of the future of our town centre. It may be that as a retail centre it simply does not have a future and could well do with a lot of consolidation. The centre has lost its way for a number of reasons and its identity and hence needs a rethink. I do not think its as simple as improving the environment so that more shops locate here - there is not that much money in the pockets of local people. We are always comparing ourselves to East Dulwich however the type of small business that is successful there are usually fairly exclusive and needs a certain type of populace with appropriate spending power to survive. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 10:43 am: | |
I think it's a question of not over-panicking about the empty shops, Roz. Roughly how many shops are there in FH? 50? 60? And there are about 5 empty shops. That's not serious oversupply. And when you say 'it's not as simple as improving the environment', that's exactly what turning empty shops into residential properties is - making the shopping street look tidier by removing a messy empty shop. And which shops do you get rid of? Many of the empty units are too small to convert effectively into flats or innapropriate for other reasons like the empty sainsbury's unit. And what mechanism do you use to force converstions anyway? There are enough innapropriate tax incentives to keep retail units empty as it is (which is one of the reasons why we have so many empty units). I just don't agree - the idea of 'consolidation' as you put it is just mega-micro management of a commercial space and wouldn't, in my opinion, work. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 02:15 pm: | |
I remember someone on this forum providing statistics and ratios between residents and shops units available in Forest Hill. It was interesting reading material but I was left unconvinced. I do not think converting old shop units into residential accommodation is a valid option for us. I don’t like what has been done in Honour Oak and I think the result would be detrimental to Forest Hill. Another reason why we can t have a successful commercial development was apparently the A205 and the rail almost splitting our town centre. One can’t deny their existence but I am not convinced about these theories. We have witnessed incredibly successful stories of town centre/village developments for many places around us. East Dulwich is only one of them (if you wish to have an entertaining read just see what Janice Turner thinks http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/janice_turner/article2599506.ece). What about Crystal Palace/Upper Norwood? There are so many other places where congestion and car traffic is rather awful on the main roads and yet it did not stop businesses setting up there. I also debate the fact that people in Forest Hill may not have the disposable income to generate a development of our town centre. Those who wish to spend their cash at the moment have to go elsewhere. Without being critical of our council, the only difference I found between all these improved high streets and our town centre is the fact that they are located in a different borough. We should embrace new and modern development on the first part of the London Road as at present there is an array of architectural styles and uniformity is almost impossible. We should really pay attention not to waste our chances by opposing systematically those developers who wish to invest on this stretch of road as there are only some many appeals they will spend their money and time on. As for the Dartmouth Road and Waldram Crescent, their architecture may not be of the best Victorian example but it could provide the backdrop for a quirky and lively high street. The work of the Town Centre Manager is quite important in this respect. If funding is the reason why some of the minor but more achievable improvements included in the UDF in 2003 were not implemented then the £10k fund should be used straightway to move things along. If I have to wait for the market forces to drive a substantial development of our town centre I d rather do it without big waste bins and motorbikes on my way but with more trees, more hanging baskets, etc, generally a more pleasant environment. |
Davidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 03:41 pm: | |
If there were only 50 retail premises in Forest Hill, there wouldn't be a problem, and we would probably already have a thriving centre. There are, however, nearer 150, plus the shops in Kirkdale.
In this quarter of Lewisham (Forest Hill, Sydenham, Perry Vale), there is about one retail unit to every 80-90 people, ie 500 shops and around 45,000 people. Given the constrained catchment area for Forest Hill, I suspect the real ratio between people who might shop here and shops is much worse.
The people who have to be convinced about the value of opening up here aren't readers of this forum, but those with the commercial skills and capital to make a go of retailing. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 08:51 pm: | |
I think Millesens is spot on. And anyway, I don't subscribe to the idea that you can split London up into units with 'so many people' living there, therefore it can only support 'so many shops'. It's an extreme example, but who the hell lives anywhere near Oxford Street? And if there are 150 shops in FH, less than ten empty ones is even less reason to panic. btw. renovation activity in the old pizza pianeta shop today...and the renovations of the old organic republic shop are continuing. |
Davidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 11:13 pm: | |
Nevermodern, you say you cannot split London up into units, but any competent retailer will do just that - he or she will look at catchment area to see how much business is available for particular types of shops in particular areas. Of course, Nevermodern is right that different types of retailing, and different shopping areas have different catchments, and hence Oxford Street which is not dependent on local residents (heavily dependent on tourism - I wonder how many hotel bedspaces are within 20 minutes of Oxford Street?)
However, Forest Hill is not Oxford Street. It is a local shopping centre. Though it has several businesses which trade nationally and internationally, fundamentally it is dependent on local trade, which is insufficient to justify the existing number of retail premises. To achieve an attractive small centre, we need less retail premises, and more decent shops. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
Team award for Nonsense of the Day goes to Millesens and Nevermodern. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 11:33 pm: | |
care to qualify that, hilltop? As usual, i wait with anticipation for your contribution. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 08 October, 2007 - 11:37 pm: | |
i still say it's nonsense, david.... i shop in forest hill, east dulwich, central london, spitalfields, camden... you can't draw circles round areas in london. everyone shops everywhere. Anyway, clearly at some point the units in forest hill were all commercially viable. And i imagine when they were, there were less people living in your designated and cirlced se23 zone. |
Davidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 01:03 am: | |
At the end of the 19th century, Forest Hill apparently had 400 or so shops. I doubt whether many were ever very viable, or we would not have lost over 60% of them (mostly not to the Luftwaffe). Forest Hill is not a 'natural' market town like Stamford or Peterborough. It is the result of Victorian speculative building. You can't assume that the Victorian builders instinctively got their marketing right. (Incidentally, some of the old photographs assembled by Steve Grindley and others indicate quite a bit of retail dereliction, at least on the edges of the centre.)
As far as I can see, population numbers in those days were probably not much different from now (I'm sure Steve G or one or other of the local historians would be able to let us know). Households were larger, food was relatively more expensive, retail margins for basic essentials were higher, and traditional food distribution networks supporting small shopkeepers were intact. There were also people called housewives who went out shopping every day. If you would be happy to spend over a third of your income on food, and return women to the domestic sphere, we could probably quite easily recreate those conditions. I suspect there might not be too many votes for this.
I am not postulating any magic 'circle' around Forest Hill within which people are 'assigned' to this catchment area. That people are mobile and have a choice is a key factor which any plan for an area like Forest Hill has to consider, bearing in mind the actual potential of the location, but it can't be considered to lead to automatic opportunities to run a thriving centre at the current size. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 09:14 am: | |
I believe the figure of 150 shops includes Brockley Rise, Stansted Road (top and bottom), Perry Vale parade of shops at Perry Rise end, Wood Vale, Kirkdale end of Dartmouth Road, as well as the main town centres of Forest Hill and Honor Oak.
Whilst it would be nice to think that 150 shops could survive (and far more seem to thrive in East Dulwich) it makes sense for some consolidation to take place. If most of the shops in the area were in London Road, Dartmouth Road, and Honor Oak Park then there would be more good reasons for going there to shop. What has happened over the years is that we have been left with isolated parades of shops with no real focus to Forest Hill.
The new homes in the heart of Forest Hill (Clyde Vale, Finches, Print Works, top of Taymount Rise) bring in considerably more customers to the town centre and the East London Line Extension and reopening of the library and pools will bring far greater footfall to the town centre. There is every reason to believe that, with nurturing, Forest Hill town centre can thrive in the way that East Dulwich or Downham have been able to. what this does require is coordinated town centre management, and different groups of consumers, traders, property owners, and the local council working together.
Lewisham council must take control of the situation and help businesses to thrive in Forest Hill - there is little evidence of this happening at present, and the continuing closure of the pool, commercial bins blocking the high street, no control of signage in a conservation area, and the difficulty of getting a pay and display ticket at Sainsburys make the situation worse. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 09:53 am: | |
We all really want the same thing here; none of us are particular experts in economic /retail development hence we do need an independent analysis of the current situation and what the current/future markets will support, taking into account the increased residential stock,change in shopping habits, etc. and a feasibility study as to future scenarios for FH centre, taking into account various degrees of intervention by the Council,etc. The direction that needs to be taken will become much clearer. I suggest that the £10 community fund is better spent on considering the long term future of FH rather than short term decorative measures.
Can the Councillors please say something, as we never seem to hear from them on this matter despite countless community meetings? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 09:54 am: | |
Of course I meant to say £10k! |
Councillorsusanwise
Joined 20-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 10:21 am: | |
A reminder that I have already started another thread for a Perry Vale Councillors' ward meeting to discuss how residents would wish the next round of their £10K locality fund spent.
Perry Vale is also SE23, and the meeting will be held on Monday, 29th October 2007, at 7.30pm, at St. George's Church, at the junction of Vancouver and Woolstone Roads SE23 |
Davidwhiting
Joined 07-12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 10:37 am: | |
The figure of 150 refers just to the retail premises (not shops incidentally) in Forest Hill cenre. It doesn't include the Kirkdale cluster, Honor Oak Park, the cluster at the junction of Perry Rise and Woolstone Rd, nor Brockley Rise, nor Wood Vale. How do I know? I walked round and counted them.
A couple of hundred more residents will be a significant help to small shops, but will not be transformative. Re-opening the Library and Pools will help significantly.
I think Roz is right about the need for a study, but it should be, as she says, a cool dispassionate look at what can be achieved on the basis of the resources realistically likely to be available to support the development of the centre.
Incidentally, do people really believe that the commercial success of Northcote Road, East Dulwich and similar has very much to do with town centre management as opposed to market forces? |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Still not entirely sure what shops you'd close for good, DW. And most shopping areas that draw people from outside their immediate population started off as 'local shopping centres'. I think, from your figures, a consolidation of 400 shops down to 150 is sufficient, especially considering that fact that there are, in reality, relatively few empty ones out of that 150 and population is the same as it was when there were 400. Conversion of shops to residential is also never an easy process, and the end result usually looks like exactly what it is - an unnatractive old shop that someone's converted...unnatractively. And If it were as easy as shrinking down london and dartmouth road at its ends and 'consolidating' around the station, then all well and good (except for businesses that exist at the ends of those roads who would be forced to close or relocate, of course). The new developments and the ELX will refocus FH towards Canary Wharf and will probably bring about quite considerable demographic change. It would be foolish to shrink FH at this time. Let's stop spending money on surveys - we have the adopted design framework - and start spending money on implementing it and making FH a nice place to live and work. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
I too wish that councillors would use forums such as this to engage with their electorate. It would save us a lot of wasted breath discussing ideas that may have been discussed and decided against by the council for probably very good reasons. |
Loca
Joined 20-09-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 01:04 pm: | |
They do! "Councillorsusanwise" and others post on this site. |
Vipes
Joined 10-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 02:41 pm: | |
David Whiting for example. Unless I'm very much mistaken. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 03:16 pm: | |
My apologies. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 03:21 pm: | |
I agree with Michael. As I said before I think our town centre retail review should be looking at London Road (from station way to Sainsbury’s), Dartmouth Road (from station to pools) and Waldram Crescent (from new Forest Hill Central development to Westbourne cafe/Chinese fish and chips). It would not be aimed at se23 but at the Forest Hill town centre. Of course I don’t mean to discard the importance of our smaller shopping arteries or parades like Honour Oak Park, Perry Vale, Kirkdale, etc but they are already in a better position and condition. So if Roz and David think this could be part of a “consolidation” (my rather simplistic way to see it, I am afraid) then of course it makes sense. However if consolidating means also converting some of the ground floor commercial units into residential spaces on these particular roads I would definitely disagree. Most of us would welcome a consultation for our town centre’s long term development potential. However I think that where the council is concerned they would gladly take on board the outcome and when the time is due for them to do their part, they would probably tell us that a lack of funding prevents them to make any progress. If even those small but yet important improvements included in the UDF 2003 still haven t been made, it could well be that the relevant council departments are truly understaffed and under funded. So I can t see how after spending our only £10k on a consulting firm we could expect the council to do even more upon completion of an external review. |
Millesens
Joined 21-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 - 03:27 pm: | |
HTG thank you for the Award, I am somewhat touched. And by the way thank God Iceland did not chose Forest Hill and opened in Penge instead. So it is not at all that bad here, is it ? |
