| Author |
Message |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 22 June, 2006 - 11:09 pm: | |
As he with astounding knowledge of local pubs I will have my own thread to update you on events.
I'll start off with the bad, the ugly and the good.
The bad was still no progress in the Moor Park Tavern department. As well as not letting me in for World Cup football I see no signs of a big screen.
Good, that one is off my chest. Now an old favourite of mine was the Bricklayers Arms, in Sydenham, not far off our patch. You could always spot the copper from the station next door (causual but smart) and it was my local for almost ten years. Four years ago it had a lovely family atmosphere for the England World cup matches, two years ago not so nice (there was a change of landlords around then) and now (Tuesday) just a group of ASBOs playing pool.
So onto the Railway Telegraph, and a pub that has been very up and down in recent years. It went a bit down hill following the sudden departure of the old dear who had run it very well, around a year ago. But on Monday it was buzzing with the only criticism that the telly's were out of sink, ruining a little when you hear a cheer from the other side but the ball has yet to go in on the TV that you are watching. They are supposedly close to the people who run the Forest Hill Tavern (now trendy FHT) on Forest Hill Road, a pub I went in 8 years ago and then out pretty quickly.
Other pubs worth a shout are the Gowlett Arms in Peckham, winning good pub awards and wonderful Pizzas, and the Gastro but ecclectic Rye Hotel also in Peckham.
Of course the Blyth Hill Tavern continues to be a favourite. |
Marianne
Joined 01-07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 23 June, 2006 - 10:52 am: | |
Don't forget the White Horse in Peckham - family pub and excellent Sunday lunches. |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 07 July, 2006 - 09:31 pm: | |
I hear the Herne Tavern on Forest Hill Road is being refurbished as a "traditional family pub" and will reopen as The Herne. This may be out of your geographical area of expertise, but do you have an opinion/information?
And what exactly is a "traditional family pub" these days? |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 09 July, 2006 - 10:08 pm: | |
Mother and father inside and children outside with a glass of lemonade and a packet of crisps? |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 09 July, 2006 - 10:41 pm: | |
Could be anything from Gin Lane-style parents getting sloshed and smoking fags having dragged kids along to pub to indulgent middle class parents letting ludicrously named organic trophy children run riot via chicken dippers and assorted Brakes Bros processed food-flavoured dross at A Family Pub near you.
I quite agree that places for famlies to go are required, but I'm not sure the pub is the place. It's usually an unhappy mix that fails on both fronts. It's only a couple of steps up from family casinos and family knocking shops really. |
Calvin
Joined 20-02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 10 July, 2006 - 08:37 am: | |
It's usually an unhappy mix, you say. What about those unusual times when it works? Maybe it's down to the landlord's success at creating a really good family pub.
In France & Spain, at least (we have not travelled extensively to other countries with our children), we've consistently found plenty of child-friendly casual restaurants. Those don't seem to exist in England, leaving the pub as the only alternative. Nice that people are trying to make more of them welcoming to families. |
Jbird
Joined 13-02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 10 July, 2006 - 09:58 am: | |
I had a pint and a pie at the Clock House (a Youngs pub, opposite Peckham Rye) last week. Pint was good, pie was 'orrible, but a great pub in a great location nonetheless, and a good sunday evening stroll from HOP and Forest Hill. |
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 10 July, 2006 - 07:38 pm: | |
I agree that kids and pubs in this country tend to be an unhappy mix unless a pub has the facilities to provide a designated family area.
My friends and I have been driven out of pubs so many times recently because of kids yelling the place down. On a recent walk we found a tiny tucked away pub and sat in what we assumed was an adults only bar area.
Within minutes a family with kids arrived - and a peaceful and tiny little bar was transformed into a noise-fest. The shouts, screams and tantrums went on for nearly an hour until we were forced to leave. It was bloomin' unbearable.
Becoming 'family friendly' is obviously a money-spinner for many pubs but landlords also need to balance that with the needs of all their customers. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 10 July, 2006 - 09:03 pm: | |
Nothing wrong with kids as long as they are reasonably well behaved - like Hilltopjunior, of course - but many parents are overly indulgent, especially the more upper-middle class ones in my opinion. It's probably the case that the "family friendly places" abroad do not suffer quite the same problems; certainly when seeing whole families out in Spain little Juan and Juanita have not generally been running riot.
It's quite true we don't have the same type of family restaurant in the UK, but to try and just graft this idea onto a pub, which is quite different, rarely works and in my opinion is usually inappropriate. The fact that the pub is "the only alternative" does not logically justify it.
People go to the pub to drink and talk. Neither of these is much assisted by the presence of children.
The lack of "family restaurants" may start to be addressed but we are probably still catching up in that for many in the UK going out to eat at all was until recently (and for many still is) something for special occasions only. |
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 10 July, 2006 - 10:13 pm: | |
Most of the high street chain restaurants already seem to do a reasonable job catering to families - the Pizza Expresses/Cafe Pastas etc. Also before anyone thinks I'm a child-hating monster I only have a problem with the obviously badly behaved ones - or rather their parents. It's amazing how many families can afford to eat out these days as the furthest my family got when I was a kid was the Wimpy on Southend Seafront and that was only an occasional treat!
I suppose I should try and make this relevant to Forest Hill and say that the Dulwich Woodhouse tries to be family friendly but with mixed results I think. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 11 July, 2006 - 12:25 pm: | |
What are you lot like? This was not supposed to be a debate about letting kids into pubs but a personal and biased view based on what I like and dislike, hopefully updating you on some of the pubs in SE23 and the surrounding areas.
But Sherwood I recall having cherry aid in the garden when my grandmother visited (the only time we visited pubs as a child). The already missed commedy Early Doors features the kids left in the car www.imdb.com/title/tt0366010/ |
Liz
Joined 26-04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 11 July, 2006 - 03:37 pm: | |
And I was just interseted in whether the Herne Tavern was likely to benefit from a refurbishment. I've never actually been in but felt sure Baggydave would have an assessment. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 11 July, 2006 - 03:46 pm: | |
What do people think about allowing Baggydave into pubs? I know he has not been able to gain entry to Moor Park Tavern for many years, but I think pubs should generally allow BD to drink in them as long as he does not make too much noise or have a tantrum. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 13 July, 2006 - 09:06 am: | |
Herne Hill Tavern, marvellous leaded lights and relatively unspoiled interior. Reasonably priced booze, clientele not as frightening as Forest Hill Tavern. But to be honest haven’t been there for some time and last visit it was very quiet. I heard it had some link to extremist NF type groups once, not that I have witnessed anything. Now owned by The Palmerston people so expect yet another gastro style joint. Will give it a visit then. Still some elements of the Dartmouth Arms I miss, irrespective of the general improvement – let’s see how this one goes |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 12:28 pm: | |
Anyone got any idea what might happen to the St Germains? I moved into the area after it was boarded up, so have no idea what it was like before the metal shutters were nailed on. |
Jbird
Joined 13-02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 12:46 pm: | |
It looked pretty rough to me (although I never went in). It's been taken over by the Punch Tavern group I think, and is being renovated. I imagine it'll be a Weatherspoons type of place. |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 01:25 pm: | |
A few more details (though not much) on St Gemains here.
http://punchpubs.punchpubs.co.uk/dispCounty.asp?Mo de=1&C_ID=15&C_NAME=London
You'll need to scroll down a bit. |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 01:50 pm: | |
Oh - ta. Deary me. Looks as though things are still going to be grim down my end of Brockley Rise after it's reopened! |
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 02:05 pm: | |
Why do you say that Laura? Can't see any indication on that link of what market they're targeting in the refurb (unless I'm missing something) |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 02:09 pm: | |
As long as it's better than either the Chandos or Blythe Hill Tavern (why people rave about this place I'll never know), it'll be a bonus. |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 02:12 pm: | |
Two reasons, Bosco, both probably a bit rubbish:
1) Not hugely impressed with the gist of the Punch Taverns site, and
2) I guess I'm just naturally pessimistic.
Simon - I've never been to the BHT, but find the Chandos really intimidating. |
Oly
Joined 12-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 02:31 pm: | |
Has anybody been to the Foresters/All Inn One, on Perry Vale recently ? They have a new garden at the back and looks very nice. I think they also trying to do the front area as well by the looks of it. |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 03:38 pm: | |
I've been in there a few times, although I haven't seen the new garden, but it is a very nice pub. The staff are always friendly as are the people who usually drink in there regularly. All round good pub. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 04:56 pm: | |
St Germain's - I say we call it "Sahn-jermahn" in a Parisian style, and occupy it fully from the first night of opening to prevent ruffians gaining a foothold.
In no time the fridges will contain no more alcopops, just chilled Burgundy, and they'll have to lay on a shuttle bus from the posh bit. |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 20 July, 2006 - 05:30 pm: | |
Mais bien sur!
But... what posh bit? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 21 July, 2006 - 12:30 pm: | |
Laura, go to the BHT, particularly on a Thursday night when they have a traditional band, and then tell the forum what you think. Sure unlike Simon, you will enjoy the place |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 02:07 pm: | |
Laura, I can indeed endorse Baggy's view of the Blythe. In fact I met the great man himself in there one night. It is one of the only proper pubs left in the area. I suspect that if you like a traditional pub you will love it. If you prefer poncy wine bar type places then you will be disappointed. It also has a very nice garden which is great in this heat. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 24 July, 2006 - 03:02 pm: | |
Andy, shhhhhhh
I am a man of great mystery |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 09:02 am: | |
You're absolutely right Baggy and Andy. The great British tradition of sitting in a dark, smoky pub surrounded by old men sipping warm, flat beer and people knocking out dodgy gear from a holdall is one that must be continued. As you rightly point out, BHT is one of the last of these places left. I wonder why.....? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 02:23 pm: | |
And there was me thinking that I stereotyped too much, Simon. Love it or loath it, your choice. My regular readers will all know my taste in pubs and that with a small select gathering we visited every SE23 pub one Saturday last year, as reported here and the SE Camra newsletter. I’m also occasionally to be found on the wonderful beer in the evening website, which appears to have no censorship (not that I am truly offensive in any case) and I have just consulted with it www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/results.shtml?l=SE23 and found that BHT is highly rated. The Capital is pretty low down but interestingly enough a pub I never rave about and doubt whether sarccy Simon would like is the Forest Hill Hotel which scores highest. The comments I have seen seem pretty measured/representative – and none of them are mine!
As for dodgy dealers; there is an East Asian guy who comes round with his bag of knock-off DVDs whenever I am in the Telegraph. This irritates me as he should be kicked out. Telegraph is a bit of an odd one, as in some respects not as friendly as under the old management, yet at the same time they are really pulling out the stops to encourage new custom. Think it has had similar ups and downs in the past.
It was my birthday yesterday and visited the Dulwich Woodhouse. Another pub with major up and down sides. New management and may have gone a bit more gastro. Their attitude towards kids seems to have worsened, if that was possible (very hypocritical as they do so much business out of families) but they said that they appear to have lost business since the climbing frame and swings went (if you are going to have kids in a pub what better to have them all running around hyped up on cola in one area). |
Simon
Joined 18-07-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 02:46 pm: | |
"My regular readers...."? Are you sure BD? |
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 25 July, 2006 - 10:18 pm: | |
And, isn't this supposed to be an 'occasional' thread. Must breach Trades Description Act or something, looks compulsive rather than occasional. Bet you are all in denial and Trisha regulars. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 26 July, 2006 - 12:39 pm: | |
Get you two. This is an occasional thread. I post occasionally. I do have lots of readers. Unfortunately most of them has ASBOs so aren't allowed to post.
Not that I will rise to your most cruel bating.
Loneranger, you are being far too witty for this site, you will get banned!
Who's Tricia? Perhaps Brian may know. |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 26 July, 2006 - 01:26 pm: | |
Tricia = female Jerry Springer. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 July, 2006 - 10:15 am: | |
My top five local pubs:
1) The Blythe
2) ---------- (because there is a really big drop off)
3) Question (a little bit of Romford down your street)
4) The Dartmouth (nice yet expensive food, they cannot pour Guinness, but I quite like the garden out the back where you can hear "This is Forest Hill" from the station PA)
5) Errrrr. The Telegraph (used to be nice but now isn't, very. But still has Gram Parsons on the jukebox) |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 July, 2006 - 01:25 pm: | |
I must admit have not been in The Blythe for about 30 years
Back in the 70's only 3 decent pubs for real beer fans
1. Bricklayers Arms ( now slightly changed !!!! )
2. The Woodhouse
3. The Torygraph. |
Djnever
Joined 09-04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 July, 2006 - 01:34 pm: | |
what is it with the Blythe Hill tavern? Im sorry but it looks like a real dump - on possibly one of the roughest streets in South London, Stansted Road. If you like pubs where hoodies/ yoofs/ kids hang out on bikes yards from the front door, its ideal. I always thought a good pub meant good location.
My top 5:
1) The Hob - it breathes a bit of culture into FH
2) Dulwich Wood House - nice for a walk and great beer garden
3) Dartmouth Arms - posh but a great alternative to complete dump (aka The Capitol)
4) Bar Equal (HOP) - stylish and serves Budvar on tap
5) Grove Tavern - purely 2 simple reasons, they serve Coors lager on tap, a very rare thing and the "unlimited" salad bar. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 July, 2006 - 02:57 pm: | |
No need to apologise, old boy.
Why Blythe..?
Well, The Guinness is finer than some in Dublin. It is pure nectar. The bar-staff all actually *want* to be bar-staff and are perfectly charming. London's finest barman - Terry... All d'best. There is a very friendly, warm atmosphere, including a man who goes there every evening to read Proust and drink red wine. Flexible closing time and I'm not scared of kids.
In all - lovely. |
Deanos
Joined 01-12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 27 July, 2006 - 03:24 pm: | |
Did I mention that you can get a pint in Bar Equal now? That makes it a bit better if you ask me. |
Hoppy
Joined 05-12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 07:58 am: | |
Are you on commission Deanos? |
Deanos
Joined 01-12-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 09:27 am: | |
I should be! I made a bit of a fuss to the owner about getting pints in, and now that they are available I feel obliged to do my bit to spread the word! |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 01:03 pm: | |
To remind you lot this is supposed to be an occasional thread where I update you and you all thank me, no need to post that of course.
Clearly we all have our opinions and the MPT/BHT vs the rest of the mediocre and worse places has been fully aired in the past. But of course I fully endorse Fanboy Mark, and Andy's views as I do Andy's musical tastes, but we can continue this love-in outside the web site.
Spend your time more productively on the wonderful www.beerintheevening.com where I have met my alter ego (see comments on East Dulwich Tavern).
Did not rise to earlier postings where clearly Sherwood deserves and SE23.com ASBO by mentioning Jerry Springer - 8000 profanities in JS the Opera apparently (taking the whole 30 piece choir) - You Souness (someone will work that one out).
And Brian I was expecting a "modern life is rubbish" comment. Disappointed! |
Dotcom
Joined 21-04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 01:15 pm: | |
Fanboy Mark on Blythe Hill Tavern. Good for you, Terry's the best, and Chris? Well, he's Chris. Bless.
And the garden is fantastic. Those hanging baskets......... beautiful! |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 01:19 pm: | |
Who's your alter ego then? The "beertastingmonkey" seems a bit ruder than you Dave. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 01:42 pm: | |
Offensive, without causing offense, if you get my drift |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 28 July, 2006 - 02:23 pm: | |
Baggy, I don't know how eclectic your musical tastes are but I am quite interested in the September festival at www.spitz.co.uk. The Orton and Jansch gig is sold out but I am fully intending to go to the Davy Graham one and possibly John Renbourn. |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 30 July, 2006 - 10:25 pm: | |
Baggydave,
You'll get me excommunicated! |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 31 July, 2006 - 10:49 am: | |
Disclaimer. Baggydave also posts on 'beer in the evening' but does not post under any other name. What you see is what you get.
Good suggestion Andy. Have withdrawal symptoms after not attending the Cambridge Folk Festival. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 August, 2006 - 02:55 pm: | |
Blimey. This is all a bit odd.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the St Germain opening, as it's a nice half way point between me and my two friends who I am in a band with.
Baggydave, not sure if you got my reply, the chaps you used didn't seem to like it. I see a theme... |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 August, 2006 - 12:36 pm: | |
Dotcom, to top all, Terry from the Blythe came along to our gig at the 12 Bar Club in central London last night.
He is clearly a prince amoung men.
The Dulwich Wood House is just too hectic, too many kids running around. I know they are all outside, but it feels like being in the film Zulu. I like a dark, corner to drink, swear and laugh. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 August, 2006 - 01:14 pm: | |
i often venture into the Dulwich Wooden House. Great food and very relaxing.
You should avoid afternoons and early evenings if nice weather. Best to go if bad weather as garden empty.
No smoking area is really great in those circumstances. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 August, 2006 - 04:29 pm: | |
I believe the building was designed by Paxton. It is very pleasing to the eye. Maybe I'll head there on my next day off during the week. It's very near to a patch of wild garlic in Dulwich Wood, which is not to be sneezed at.
I don't know The Chandos, where is it? |
Dotcom
Joined 21-04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 04 August, 2006 - 02:06 pm: | |
The Chandos is on Brockley Rise. Very scary place, dim and depressing, dirty, smelly. Don't do it!
Nothing like the Blythe Hill Tavern.
Fanboy_mark, Terry's a top bloke! |
Pvp
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 07 August, 2006 - 09:37 am: | |
Wild garlic? Whereabouts in the wood? |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 07 August, 2006 - 09:19 pm: | |
If you go down the hill from The Wood House along the small path, it's in wood the other side of the fence on your right about a 1/3 of the way down. I fried it up with cabbage and bacon. |
Pvp
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 08 August, 2006 - 09:20 am: | |
Fanboy. Thanks, I was there on Sunday. Will have to go hunting! Thanks. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 11 August, 2006 - 11:02 am: | |
Andy, Terry at the Blythe told me that I'd missed you by a few minutes on Wednesday night.
He said that he'd introduce us if we are ever in the same room for long enough!
We might be playing a gig there in in the near future, so Terry said, when he was drunk... |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 11 August, 2006 - 11:17 am: | |
Indeed, had to dash off to the Ram of all places. Good gig at the Rutland last night, bluesy stuff, can't remember the band's name though. Would Con be up for a gig? I thought he was a confirmed diddly diddly man. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 14 August, 2006 - 12:37 pm: | |
Andy - BD will be there on 14 Sept (BHT) |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 24 August, 2006 - 10:59 pm: | |
As will I. |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 25 August, 2006 - 10:09 am: | |
Going for the diddly diddly? I ten to be in there a bit earlier but will do my best. |
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, 02 September, 2006 - 09:19 am: | |
There is a public notice in the press re the St. Germains Hotel Public House, applying for a variation of the Premises Licence.
Including a permit for Karaoke Monday to Wednesday 10:00 - 00:00, Thursday to Saturday 10:00 - 01:00 and Sunday 12:00 - 23:30.
With 15 hours of continuous Karoake it's bound to attract Japanese business men to live in the area. Clearly Forest Hill on the up. |
Hopjim
Joined 01-09-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 02 September, 2006 - 03:47 pm: | |
heres a poser for you...at the top end of HOP, on Brockley Rise is the Brockley jack, a local for many HOP residents, theough I think its actually in SE4 by about 20ft!...does anyone know of any plans for this place, its such a dump but could be such a nice local. A year or two ago I was living in Kilburn and a boozer called the Black Lion was turned from a really ( i mean really) dingy sticky carpet boozer into a lovely place, without being too pretentious etc, looking at the swarms of young professionals that alight the trains in HOP and FH, surely there is room for a nice local, perhaps along the lines of the Dartmouth Arms but less food oriented....the portents for St Germains do not look good, I think punch taverns will be a very chain' like affir, whatever theme they go for. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 04 September, 2006 - 12:55 pm: | |
The Brockley Jack has a wonderful small theatre on its ground floor. Try it. As with other Brockley boozers the pub itself is not one that I recommend. Go to Mr Lawrence's over the road.
On a separate issue there is a major con going on where marketing people seem to have persuaded many drinkers to add ice to cider. Now as one brought up close to cider country, this drink was an acquired taste usually bought in plastic gallon containers, although there are a few cider makers that sell decent stuff in bottles. None of them from Ireland! Ice in cider, when will the madness end. And importantly both Mr Lawrence's wine bar, and his nearby off license, stock some decent cider including French. |
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 08 September, 2006 - 08:09 am: | |
I think ice in the cider is some sort of drawn out pun for "Withnail & I" fans.
I read some good stuff on the CAMRA site about a certain popular irish cider. The conclusion seems to be that while is a bit better than dodgey 1970's english mass-market ciders, its still only 25% apple juice - SHAME on them. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 08 September, 2006 - 10:04 am: | |
What is the other 75%?! Can't say I'd ever thought of it being anything else? |
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 08 September, 2006 - 05:04 pm: | |
Imported concentrate, sugar solution and water according to the article.
Give me Westons any day. Even better is Kevin Minchew's who supplied my wedding. Several people in the family can't remember anything from about 7pm onwards. Slightly worrying.
http://www.minchews.co.uk/ |
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 08 September, 2006 - 10:36 pm: | |
Nicest cider I've had for a while is Thatchers Gold on draught. Anyone know where I might find this in London? |
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 09 September, 2006 - 12:05 am: | |
Hmmm that's a rarity. You could try the Royal Oak in Borough.
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/28/2814/Roy al_Oak/Borough |
Loneranger
Joined 29-10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 10 September, 2006 - 10:33 am: | |
The News Shopper Pub Spy reviews a Big Daddy burger at the Brockley Jack, washed down with a Speckled Hen.
Drink **** Decor: *** Food: *****
Price: **** Atmos: **** Staff: ***
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/leisure/pubspy/ |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 10 September, 2006 - 04:25 pm: | |
Some discussion on cider that Baggy Dave is actually agreeing with - what is going on? Full marks to the Royal Oak but probably preaching to the converted.
Shame that apparently the St Germains was a little ransacked after closing its doors. Also that the manager of the Gowlett did not proceed with his attempt to get the licence, but lets wait and see. |
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 24 September, 2006 - 03:43 pm: | |
OK here's a development on the cider front. The Herne Tavern on Forest Hill Road has had a refit. Busy with families and kids on Sundays (great garden), but stocks Addlestones on draught, Westons Organic in bottles and some Irish cider or other also in bottles.
Not sure if Baggydave would agree with the refit, but the interior is well preserved, the garden is good, and the range of beers (Landlord, Deuchars IPA, Spitfire, and some other) and ciders excellent. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 25 September, 2006 - 01:03 pm: | |
Baggy Dave did actually check out the Herne before the refit and was rather disappointed - the old interior and garden combination did not sit that well together. Had a long thread on this and some other pubs including a risky trip into Nunhead (a right eye opener) but the comments vanished for some reason.
Quite liked the Herne in the past and will check it out. Beer range looks OK if a bit typical (someone must have wrapped up the distribution of independent ales in London), can never criticise Westons, Addlestones came under stick from Camra as there is nitrogen or something dodgy. An an aside had the Swedish perry and cider sold at the Brockly Barge. Was this disgusting or what! |
Les
Joined 28-01-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 25 September, 2006 - 01:41 pm: | |
Hmmm agree about the beers - the Landlord was in good shape at least. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 02 October, 2006 - 01:35 pm: | |
Les - I defer to my pub guide bible - others should check out the Herne:
www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/comments.shtml/10381 / |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 12 October, 2006 - 03:30 pm: | |
Just a plug for the Crystal Palace Tavern quiz on a Wednesday. Been going for donkey's years, raising 1000s for St Christophers Hospice, but numbers seem to be a little down. I'll let them explain: http://www.cptquiz.co.uk/ |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 27 October, 2006 - 01:28 pm: | |
Slightly out of our area, but not far, I've heard that the Rutland Arms, Perry Hill, is up for auction on Tuesday and will probably be
turned into flats after that. The infamous SE23 pub crawl in 2005 went slightly off track to visit this pub. Get down there quickly before it disappears.
Other views:
Six real ales, live music several times a week, and it's a proper old fashioned boozer. Priceless!
As a jazz fan I have to say the quality of the music is top notch.
Definitely the best pub i've found in the area.
The pub has a pleasant atmosphere, which in itself sets it apart from most Catford pubs.
Think 'Jazz Club' from the Fast Show (Whitehouse and Co must've been here before they came up with that sketch!) Nice beer and friendly staff.
I went in and emerged with a beard [think this is the type of pub, not the time to be served]. Be careful, you'll find yourself drinking light and bitter you never ordered. Great music though. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 30 October, 2006 - 06:17 pm: | |
Baggy Dave went to the tour of the Capitol, and well impressed he was too. Amazing that we had this jewell in our midst but that no one took a lot of interest.
Beer disappointing as oft I find in Wotherspoons, not the price of course. General reliance on the old Scottish Newcastle type beers, and soapy IPA. Most of the beers they had on as part of their beer fest were dark and gooey (have to been in a certain frame of mind to drink this sort of stuff).
But on the positive side they keep a good range of Weston's cider, and I tried their 7.5 % Perry (too sweet for me). The bottled beers aren't bad, but the Swedish cider and perry is disguisting - there must be a market for it somewhere. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 November, 2006 - 12:16 pm: | |
Well this is my thread, as shown by the fact that I am the only one who posts on it. But from reading others threads I sense that others read it ("We love you BD, you are the people's poet").
Some sad news just off our patch, the wonderful Rutland Arms in Perry Rise shuts on 3 December to be converted into flats. Check out Beer in the evening dot com for wonderful reviews of the place. CAMRA SE London are holding a wake on 1 December, black tie minimum. Hope some of you will be there, I'll be the one in a black tie. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 November, 2006 - 01:11 pm: | |
BD
You are joking about the Rutland Arms ? Hopefully.?
I know the landlord died couple of years ago and his widow has carried on the tradition of good beers and live music. Always crowded when I go there. Very Very sad if true |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 November, 2006 - 02:26 pm: | |
Sorry Brian, not all my postings are in jest |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 November, 2006 - 02:26 pm: | |
BD,
I thought the Rutland Arms is at 55 Perry Hill, SE6.
You might cause a lot of people to go thirsty if you misdirect them! |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 10 November, 2006 - 12:22 pm: | |
BD
Not being a regular beer drinker myself (abject apologies for speaking a heresy) I do not normally follow these things, but I was visiting a friend in Cambridgeshire recently and drank an excellent pint of Woodfordes Wherry. I assume you know of it (no idea how well know it is)? Any idea if it is available locally? If not, I will be joining your pressure group to have beers such as these brought here (St. Germains et al take note) |
Seeformiles
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 10 November, 2006 - 01:01 pm: | |
I think the Wherry made a brief guest appearance at Wetherspoons. My companion who seems to know about these things said it had been kept reasonably well too - not always the case with Wetherspoons of course, but it's not all bad. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 10 November, 2006 - 08:04 pm: | |
Wherry is whery very nice, and you can get polypins (36 pints) delivered from the brewery. Also served at the Ye Olde White Horse, near Kingsway/Lincoln Inns Fields, although some odd postings on my favourite beer web site (beer in the evening.com) |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 13 November, 2006 - 01:24 pm: | |
I was going to tell you about the excellent pint I had in the Herne yesterday. Except that as this is no longer a pub, I can't. |
Deanos
Joined 01-12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 13 November, 2006 - 03:38 pm: | |
I wonder if it's any good in there in the evening. I like the Sunday lunch thing purely because we can go there with friends who've got kids, but I assumed that normal pub duty would be established of an evening. The beer is good though. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 14 November, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
Can't discuss the Herne, it not being a pub (no spaces for those just wanting a drink, on Sunday).
But on another matter the The Duke, Wells Park Road, Sydenham, will be calling last orders
for the final time on Sunday 26th November. After that, the developers move in and it will be converted into flats.
This pub does not sell real ale (and hasn't for at least 15 years),but if anyone feels the urge to vist an unpretentious south-east London boozer before it is gone forever, now's your chance. The pub has probably been there since around 1900, but don't expect any Victorian
grandeur. It's a small place, the decor is uninteresting, and the layout is less than cosy.
Worth visiting only so that in 20 years you can tell the grandchildren what a pub was like. (with thanks to Karloff for the information).
On the subject of Sydenham pubs there is a walk and some interesting history:
www.london-footprints.co.uk/pubwksydenham.htm |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 14 November, 2006 - 12:44 pm: | |
Hi BD
The Pubs in Wells Park Road have been a disgrace for years.
Trouble all the lovely customers that they have may want to go elsewhere. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2006 - 12:11 pm: | |
After a number of years I chanced the Forest Hill Tavern last night. OK not quite SE23, but those of us on the posh estate don't have a local (or one that would actually let us in).
No sign of Noveuau East Dulwichites, Claphamites, students etc. Very much locals. Rather cavernous, which is a shame that you don't get quiet intimate spots, and ubiquitous large screens for the sport. Some wonderfuly eclectic music (Ian Dury, ELO!!) and surprisingly proper beer (don't recall that last time). Maybe it will pick up more real drinkers now that the Herne is no longer a pub. |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2006 - 01:18 pm: | |
It's a bit too football for my liking. It was very loud and I couldn't talk to my girlfriend about flowers and poetry with that racket. Beautiful building though and a short walk away from Boris Karloff's birthplace. I like the fact that it's opposite Mundania Road, the best street name in England |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 16 November, 2006 - 05:27 pm: | |
And what is Mundania named after Funboy? But you would have loved the music! |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 28 November, 2006 - 05:35 pm: | |
OK, very short notice but, as some of you know, the Rutland Arms, SE6 4LF,closes for ever next week. Tonight (tuesday 28th) is the last jazz night - featuring trombone player Mark Nightingale. Love to see anyone who can make it. If not, there is always the last blues night on thursday ! or SEL Camra's farewell on friday ! ...
Do check this place out before it goes |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 30 November, 2006 - 09:37 am: | |
Is Friday the last day for The Rutland, Bagsy? We had a gig, but it's been called off due to the venue being "unusual" in their behaviour. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 30 November, 2006 - 10:33 am: | |
Baggy
You thread not so occasional as first thought. |
Oly
Joined 12-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 30 November, 2006 - 11:24 pm: | |
It is a great shame that The Rutlan is closing down but you can not blame the landlady wanting to have a break from the pub industry after so many years…and I hear that the Blues nights are moving to Forest Hill, to the All Inn One, on Perry Vale. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2006 - 04:18 pm: | |
Yes I guessed that was happening. Noticed sign at The All Inn One or Foresters as known to us long standing residents.
She is a lovely lady and deserves a happy retirement |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 01 December, 2006 - 04:48 pm: | |
Brian, Fanboy etc yes it is tonight
Would be good to see you there, I discovered this gem far too late! |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 03 December, 2006 - 10:18 am: | |
The Foresters is a lovely pub. Every time I have been in there, the staff and patrons are very friendly. (No, I don't have a stake in it, just taking to heart that I may be one of the people who only post when there is something to moan about) |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 05 December, 2006 - 04:38 pm: | |
They also do a cheap and very cheerful sunday roast. Mind you the continuous bar smoking from the locals can make it a little sore on the eyes. Still come July we'll all be civilised!! |
Oly
Joined 12-07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 07 December, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
Yam...I do love the Sunday Roast at the Foresters, is the best I had so far and is only £6.50.(Like Elizabeth25, I don`t have a stake in the the pub either, I just like the pub). |
Fanboy_mark
Joined 08-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 08 December, 2006 - 03:25 pm: | |
Heaven save us from civilised pubs. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 15 December, 2006 - 04:59 pm: | |
Think I have put this up before, what a great (but sad) web site (closed South London pubs).
www.derelictlondon.com/id1976.htm
I'm going to try to find the Nuns Head tonight |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 18 December, 2006 - 12:45 pm: | |
The Nuns Head was very nice, thank you for asking. Do any of my readers have any suggestions for a family friendly pub on New Years Eve? The wonderful BHT is adults only |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 18 December, 2006 - 02:05 pm: | |
BHT gets too packed on New Year usually. As a regular it's quite disturbing to find that most of the people are once a year merchants. Same deal christmas lunchtime. |
Johnnyb7
Joined 29-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 18 December, 2006 - 07:06 pm: | |
BD - are these derelict bubs painted a larey colour on the ground floor before or after closure..........?? |
Johnnyb7
Joined 29-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 18 December, 2006 - 07:39 pm: | |
Oops typo.....should have been PUBS |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 22 December, 2006 - 01:19 pm: | |
Baggy thanks all his friends he made on SE23.com, that made his threads some of the most popular. He is also pleased that that the owner of the Gowlett and Nuns Head is taking an interest in SE23 (watch this space) as he has a cracking formula.
I hope that someone will be brave enough to take over my mantle |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 22 December, 2006 - 02:17 pm: | |
Have they seen the ex Midland Bank on Dartmouth Road? |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 22 December, 2006 - 03:34 pm: | |
BD, what's the story?
You leaving the site or the area? This place will never be the same! |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 28 January, 2007 - 10:03 am: | |
Managers of the Dartmouth Arms have just re-opened the Dolphin in Sydenham as a non-smoking, family-friendly pub. By family-friendly, I mean you won't get kicked out, even at 9pm, if you've got kids with you. However, it still looks like a normal pub otherwise - no plastic high-chairs or cages full of plastic balls or anything. Went there on Friday night and found the place scrupulously clean, with staff very friendly and efficient. The Hook Norton ale tasted great, as did the Kronenburg Blanc. Contrary to what a reviewer on beerintheevening.com wrote, there were not dozens of screaming kids - in fact our group was the only one there with a child. Eureka! Been looking for a place like the Dolphin for years. Roll on summer - there's apparently a large beer garden out back. http://www.thedolphinsydenham.com/ |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 05:08 pm: | |
Baggy Dave has been tramping the world seeking ex-Forest Hillers and has now returned, in a style reminiscent of Warren in "This Life" to total chaos. He notes that his beloved Moor Park Tavern remains closed but was surprised that no one contibuted to the debate on the Robert Elms show on Radio London where it was suggested that this was the pub in South London that doubled up as a funeral parlour (if not which pub was it?).
He is aware that the St Germains has reopened, but perhaps as a wine bar and wonders whether any locals have tried it out yet. |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 05:24 pm: | |
Laura respectfully points Baggy Dave to the end of the thread entitled St Germains / The Honor Oak, to which she believes he may have contributed to in the past. She understands that this thread may in fact educate Baggy Dave on the matters of which he enquires. |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 05:35 pm: | |
Baggy Dave me ol' soul. Welcome back to these shores!
How nice to hear from you again. I trust your return journey was not too uncomfortable?
In your absence the shadow of The Grape has spread well and truly across Middle Earth. Have you returned as the grey witch to banish us? Got any special rings we should know about? |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 06 March, 2007 - 10:49 pm: | |
Bagpuss, dear Bagpuss
Old Fat Furry Catpuss
What a delight to find you awake and with the world. But what a disappointment that I'm compelled to agree with you over the sorry decline of traditional drinkeries in SE23. Do tell, have you simply been caught in a lengthy lock in at the Dulwich Harvester? Or perhaps savouring the delicious gastro-fayre at the newly vandalised Herne Tavern? Hmmm...I'm suddenly feeling a great deal better about the boozers at my end of town. |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 07 March, 2007 - 08:55 am: | |
Hope to see you in the BHT soon. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 07 March, 2007 - 05:56 pm: | |
Ouch Laura.
From my recollection the thread on the St Germains was in regards to how the new owner wanted this to be run. A brilliant marketing exercise by all accounts and good luck to Jamie in taking this forward. My comments were on the name change, a whinge about the range of beer and some cynical comments on modern life and bland pop music. The thread has since seem to have become a St Germains supporters club and perhaps could become a separate website.
Now what you will find on this thread is views adn comments about all the pubs in SE23 (and we have quite a wide variety) and beyond, accommodating a broad church of opinion. I believe that there are 11 pubs and at least two bars in FH and HOP. I'll leave more objective discussion on Ye Olde Honor Oake to my other favourite website www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/30/30754/Honor_Oak /Honor_Oak - some claws have been sharpened!
As for my other pals, I'm not showing any rings to Mr Winton and I am extremely worried about TJ siding with me (and where were you on your sabatical?).
Meanwhile can anyone help me with my enquiry about the Moor Park Tavern doubling up as a funeral parlour? |
Laura
Joined 19-07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 07 March, 2007 - 09:37 pm: | |
:) - wasn't meant to bite too hard, honest! |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 08 March, 2007 - 10:06 am: | |
Those early reviews on beerintheevening are hilarious. I thought we'd seen the back of those chumps like 'oh how original I am as boris was from the area, don't you know' Karloff. They have this urge to bring all those around them into their dull gotto of men only enclaves, dandruff shoulders, greasy lapels and stained crouch. Yes it might have served a particular customer, but obvious not enough or otherwise it would still be serving them. No one should be afraid of the bully's who try to put the guilt trip on those people who are after something a little more inspiring. The only pretenions are those who still think we live in the 1950's. |
Pat
Joined 12-11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 08 March, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
I didn't find some of the comments on that site hilarious, I found them quite worrying. I don't think women fearing going into a pub should be celebrated as a good thing. Shame on Karloff whoever he is. |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 08 March, 2007 - 11:12 pm: | |
I thought that Karloff was writing a mildly humorous elegy to an increasingly lost age. I don't doubt it fails to stand up to close textual analysis (but nor would have been meant to). If there is bullying to be seen surely it is in ganging up make cheap jibes at a text being taken markedly too literally. |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 12:10 am: | |
I think people should be prepared to accept that the Honor Oak isn't everyone's idea of how a pub should be. I happen to like it, but that's just personal taste and I'm sure I'm just the sort of demographic it's aimed at - but on the other hand I realise that tastes differ significantly and it won't suit everyone. |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 09:13 am: | |
Wot. No sawdust on the floor? |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 09:44 am: | |
Pat I didn't find it hilarious either, my tongue was firmly in cheek, with puckered brow. |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
Oh my, I just read the comments as well. Scary. I guess misogyny is not dead, folks.
I understand wanting to drink real ale and keeping orginial building features. But who want to drink in a dark smoky hell hole?
Oh well. |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 01:46 pm: | |
A gang of women in a pub. Whatever next? I suppose they will want the vote soon? |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 01:57 pm: | |
...now that is hilarious! |
Scipio
Joined 08-05-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 02:54 pm: | |
Boys, just give it a rest now please. The topic is Baggy's guide to local pubs. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 09 March, 2007 - 11:49 pm: | |
Wow, at least we got some debate going although I sense some over reaaction here. For smoky hell holes Elizabeth try the Hole (perhaps aptly named) in the Wall opposite Waterloo station.
My late father blamed the collapse of the British Empire on women failing to go back to their home life after working during the Great War. A bigger issue for me was the introduction of licensing hours.
Suggest leave the debate over commens to the separate beer in the evening.com, although I note that the Dartmouth Arms has retained some of its old charm and attracts a relatively high female clientelle.
Talking about being oversensitive sorry to Laura for taking her comments to heart. Rereading the whole of thread (a) this is clearly one of the more enlightened threades and (b) Laura had already made valauble contributions (now I'm starting to sound like I am flirting, quick back to the matter in hand).
Whilst as Blur said "modern life is rubbish" and Nicky Campbell said "I want to be back in the 1950s" (OK that was an Alistair McGowan impression) female opinion is most welcome on my thread.
As for unwelcome is the Toffee Jim starting up his own pub related threads elsewhere.
On pub news I have been pretty quiet. I found a beer free pub close to Westminster called the Two Chairman, unlike Ye Olde Honor Oake (there is an SE23 connection on this!) they weren't at all bothered about misordering, that's what having a captive audience does for you.
Haven't checked out the jazz and blues yet at the Forresters but note they have some more real ale on now we've discovered it.
More pub related comments most welcome |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 07:39 am: | |
Thankfully there won't be many smoky hell holes left after July when SMOKING WILL BE BANNED. A relief for me as I'm asthmatic and have had problems after occasional forays into smoky pubs and clubs. Any views on this, do you think there will be enforcement problems? |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 09:24 am: | |
One barman I spoke to said there will be a sale of ashtrays in July! |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 09:37 am: | |
I was going to add "who wants to sit next to incontinent, old men who haven't showered or shaved in three weeks" along with the smokey hell hole comment, but I thought it would be a genralising about old men as "gangs of women!" comment on the other thread.
Oh dear, is this off topic. Maybe the "pubs" thread should be moved to the secondary section, or should we focus only on Forest Hill pubs.
I think I am still on topic then? |
Johnc
Joined 09-01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 11:29 am: | |
Many Pubs are already smoke free. Where I work in Blackfriars, the Blackfriar Pub is such an establishment with not an ashtray in sight and its always busy |
Tersie
Joined 04-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 12 March, 2007 - 07:28 pm: | |
I am very keen to celebrate St Patricks day on Saturday at a local (ish) decent ture Irish boozer - any recomendations for any where to go in the SE London area BaggyDave or anyone else?? |
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 09:52 am: | |
Tersie, if you're Irish, I wouldn't bother. You'll have a more Irish experience just staying at home than you will in any "Irish" pub in this country.
God, I hate Paddy's Day in this country. |
Owen0910
Joined 31-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
One of the best Irish pubs in the area is Ganleys in Herne Hill. This will also be their last St Paddys night as the owner is emigrating and it is being taken over by the guy who owns the Bishop in East Dulwich.
It gets absolutely packed but is usually good fun. Although I am quite a fan of pubs/bars like the Honor Oak and Bishop I will be quite sad to see this one go as I used to drink there when I first moved into the area 10 years ago and it was known as the Brockwell Park Tavern. |
Dotcom
Joined 21-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 11:57 am: | |
It depends what you're looking for. The Blythe Hill Tavern usually has their 'diddly-dee' music in the evening and they pour a good Guinness, they have done reduced prices for Guinness on St Patrick's day in the past, but I don't know if they'll be doing that this year, and the Golden Lion on Sydenham High Street does a mean 'cabbage and bacon' during the day. I think Lewisham town centre does a St Patrick's day parade as well. |
Tersie
Joined 04-02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 07:01 pm: | |
Thanks for the recommendations all! Bosco I know what you mean about some of the irish pubs here they can be v irritating with nothing Irish about them at all...but I am sure there are still some very good irish run pubs where the craic can be good on St Pats day and as it is a saturday it is rude not to head out for a few jars. I think I will check out some of these options so thanks Dotcom and Owen. Anyone know what the Wishing Well in Bellingden Road Peckham Rye is like too?? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 08:04 pm: | |
St Patrick's Night Céilí in Catford
http://www.lewishamirish.plus.com/festival.htm
I suspect that the Lewisham Irish Club has a bar and serves Guiness but there is only one way to be sure. |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 13 March, 2007 - 08:13 pm: | |
To be sure? |
Bosco
Joined 16-07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 10:24 am: | |
Very true Tersie, and admittedly, I will, for the first time in years, be going for a few drinks on Paddy's day - anyone know any decent pubs around the South Bank that won't be full of drunk Englishmen with those stupid Guinness hats, or is that too much to ask for?? |
Lola
Joined 24-11-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 11:25 am: | |
I'm not too sure what exactly an Irish pub is. Is it the decor or the nationality of the people who run it? I think the General Napier on Bovill Road is run by an Irish family but wouldn't swear on it. It doesn't have bits of old violins stuck to the wall like an O'Neills but then such things are about as Irish as those stupid Guinness hats that Bosco hates. The General Nap has a feel of an old pub in Ireland - old blokes drinking too much, patterned carpet, cat sleeping near the window, 400 hours to get a pint of guiness served but relaxing and quite pleasant... |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 01:09 pm: | |
Blythe should be spot on and most excellent beer. There is a pub on the way between Peckham and Nunhead which is popular with young Irish people living in London, rathher than the esablished Irish community (ie family have settled maybe generations ago). I hope that I am not making any sweeping comments here. Also the Castle in East Dulwich. Non of these are 'plastic paddy' places. St Germains was also an Irish pub but think we've exhausted that discussion.
Reminds me of a Spitting Image sketch years ago about Jack Charlton's green army, and he was recruiting players who were clearly not Irish but making themselves out to be such (Paul O'Gascoingne for example). Sadly I can trace no Irish in my routes whatsoever.
Howabout you Mr Toffee O'Jim? |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
I have it on good authority that the Irish club at the top of Mount Pleasant in Liverpool is the place to go. That it shut down 10 years ago shouldn't put you off.
For a bit of more local Irish folk lore follow this link and go down three or four comments
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/14/14922/Go wlett_Arms/Peckham
Otherwise you could do a very good deal worse than the Blythe. |
Tersie
Joined 04-02-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, 14 March, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Hi Bosco - I can highly recommend the Kings Arms 25 Roupell Street SE1 8TB and the White Hart nearby. Both are v close to Waterloo East Stn (easy to get the last train back to SE23 too!) I got this info for you off www.fancyapint.com which is a great guide giving you info of pubs near whatever station you want to arrive at.
Kings Arms - An excellent local in a quaintly picturesque (especially if you like industrial Victoriana) area just at the back of Waterloo East Station. We're sure we've seen the blackened terrace houses in the nearby streets in many a period drama and this pub just fits right in. That's not to say it's an olde worlde, touristy pub-going experience. it's not. The beer is good (decent selection) the service prompt and efficient (it has to be on busy Friday nights) and the food (Thai) is pretty good too. We like this place a lot - so much so we gave it an award.
Hope you enjoy ;-) |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 15 March, 2007 - 05:08 pm: | |
Worryingly pubs that I frequent are being recommended here, but they will be far too smoky for many of the readers leaving more space for me to enjoy myself. Whilst fully recommend the Blythe, you will find it very crowded on Paddy's day.
A quick Google search found such great recommendations as O'Neills, Scruffy O'Murphy's, William FitzPatrick's, Waxy O’Connors and get this - the Empress of India. Suggest you avoid at all costs. |
Tersie
Joined 04-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 19 March, 2007 - 01:22 pm: | |
Hi All, I ended up having a tip top St Paddies Night in a bar called Page 2 just near Peckham Rye (going towards Nunhead) The owner is a Cork man called Dick and the craic was good, good band and late bar and not a guiness hat in site. It is very laid back and I would highly recommend. Dick who happens to be an old friend by complete co-incidence was telling me that Jude Law was in there last week drinking some of the black stuff too, so can't be bad for eye candy too ;-) |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 19 March, 2007 - 02:14 pm: | |
I wasn't there unfortunately but there apparently was a hefty dose of surrealism in the Blythe. About 200 Irish people glued to the cricket and cheering every run. Weird. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 19 March, 2007 - 02:51 pm: | |
Tersie - Bar 2 is the one that I was thinking about - see my earlier posting. Glad you found it - and genuinely Irish too! Also saw a band there.
Only critcism was the price of the Guinness (can't critise lack of real ale, as that is not an Irish speciality).
And to take up Andy's point - should have recommended Paddy's day in Sabina Park in Jamaica. Must have been a great night in the BHT. The FHT also had a left over tricolour when I visited yesterday so must have also been celebrating.
BD has at last reviewed the Old Honor Oake, the real ale version is on BITE and a summary will be put on his own thread later. Believe it to be a fair (and generally positive) reflection and have yet to receive any death threats. Hope this has whetted your appetite dear reader. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 22 March, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
Still no death threats? Where has my audience gone? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 23 March, 2007 - 09:22 am: | |
More from BaggyDave and reviews of the Honor Oak at http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/30/30754/Ho nor_Oak/Honor_Oak
It is interesting looking at the ratings for pubs around Forest Hill and Honor Oak:
1st place is Honor Oak with 8.7/10
2nd place Forest Hill Hotel & Forest Hill Tavern both get 8/10
Lots of other 6-8/10 in Forest Hill.
Down at the bottom is the Greyhound (in Sydenham and now closed - which won't help its ratings 2/10)
Brockley Jack is down at 2.4/10, a bad fall for pub that used to have a good rep.
The Dolphin only manages 3.1/10 which seems a little unfair, and I can only assume is a result of pre-makeover ratings.
I don't quite understand how Bird in Hand has about the same rating as the Hob 5.9/10. Perhaps the Hob needs to improve their beer but that is not important when it is such a great comedy venue. |
Nasaroc
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 23 March, 2007 - 10:31 am: | |
The Greyhound hasn't closed - in fact they've recently re-planted their tubs outside! Admittedly it's seen better days, but it's still flourishing! |
Broadbeanster
Joined 12-02-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 23 March, 2007 - 01:35 pm: | |
I thought this article on The Guardian website today may be of interest:
2041087%2C00.html,http://www.guardian.co.uk/britai n/article/0,,2041087,00.html |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 29 March, 2007 - 12:36 pm: | |
The Guardian article is interesting (local pubs failing to stock local beers) but misses some of the other reasons why choice has been eroded namely the failure of the MMC report into tied houses, the rise of the pub chains, independent breweries turning from heroes into villains, globalisation (eg Budweiser, Interbrew) and leading on from this the power of the marketing ladies and gents to influence our lifestyle.
Is this relevant to SE23? Very much. Fortunately we have not witnessed a takeover by the main high street chains (get the bus to Lewisham or train to Croydon for that) although most of the new activity is driven by other chains, such as Punch Taverns. They appear to be more enlightened than others in allowing pubs such as the Gowlett and YOHO to do much of their own thing. The days of the wet pub (no food) seem to be numbered as these will not produce the returns that are now demanded/expected. And on the expectation that Jamie does check out the competition I hope you read the Guardian article and take note of the views on Greene King. I believe TJ is advising you on beers and fags. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 26 April, 2007 - 08:16 pm: | |
Sorry this thread has been a bit light recently, but please see my other thread. Had a particularly good pint in the Market Porter the other day but that is well off SE23 territory.
Closer to home I see both my local, the Forest Hill Tavern, and another pub down the road, the Clock House, are closed for refurbishment. Are they also going to become Gastropubs? If so I hope they don't turn into restaurants like the Herne has. Any info out there? |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 27 April, 2007 - 02:15 pm: | |
Baggydave
Given that you live atop Shake'n'Vac Mountain your local is the Grove Tavern. Your second most local - and the one most pertinent to SE23 discussion - is the Capitol.
Clearly you are still suffering from SE22 secession obsession. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 27 April, 2007 - 02:35 pm: | |
And... your point is? A curse of flat pack by design pubs for your side of the tracks. |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 27 April, 2007 - 03:16 pm: | |
Fear not baggy. At some point in the future, they will be taking out 'interesting' wooden furniture, closing down kitchens and laying sticky carpet once again in these great institutions. It's only a phase. |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 27 April, 2007 - 03:56 pm: | |
Oh, when oh when will they start selling dry butter and fish paste sandwiches which curve up at the edges again? Refusing to sell pints to the 'ladies'...when will the pubs remove all toilet paper from the loos and door locks on the stalls? I for one think an ash tray is not an ash tray unless it is stuck to a wood veneer table. Oh yes, the good old days.... |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 27 April, 2007 - 05:48 pm: | |
All went down hill when they knocked the lounges and bars into one. People knew their places in those days |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 April, 2007 - 06:10 pm: | |
Only two months to go until the smoking ban (hurrah).
Does anyone know if any of the Forest Hill pubs are thinking of becoming more child friendly when the smoking ban arrives?
The recently reopened, non-smoking Dolphin in Sydenham is the only such enlightened place I know of.
The Capitol allows kids but only until 9pm, when they kick you out for some bizarre reason.
Does anyone else find this incredibly annoying?
Surely there are enough parents with social lives to fill just one of the many pubs in the Forest Hill area?
Where do you all go?
PS. Crown and Greyhound in Dulwich Village is the best pub unenlightened pub in the area as they have been known to serve Kirin Ichiban Shibori. Mmm...now there's a pint. |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 April, 2007 - 07:03 pm: | |
Not sure on the whole kids + pub thing. There doesn't seem to be the same pressure towards child-friendly bookies, for example. Yesterday I was in the Horniman Gardens and there was a huge group of kids and their parents, gathered for one of the kid's birthdays. The adults were socialising among themselves, some having a bottle of beer, while the kids were free to run around, fight one another etc - and it really seemed to me that this was far better and more appropriate than trying to achieve some sort of poor compromise in a pub. Of course, it's not every weekend that the weather permits this... |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 April, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
well, ... Baggy's thread has gone beyond the pale, well, at least BeyondSE23
I guess this is a way to get more 'action' on this part of the forum? I suppose on the positive side it means that more pubs, beers and issues can be discussed, although as a classic of the SE23 genre it seems odd to see it moved here. |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 April, 2007 - 10:24 pm: | |
oh, and for the record (and those with alcohol licences can agree or disagree) I think that there is something in the licencing laws which means that kids cannot be in a licenced establishment after a certain time, hence the "bizarre reason" for kicking them out
I agree that in a more liberal society, like most of Europe, kids should be allowed in wherever their parents think is appropriate, at whatever time, but as we live in a nanny state we need to do what nanny says and nanny says "TO BED WITH YOU!" |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 30 April, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
Mmm - but there's not the same pub culture in most the rest of Europe so it's hard to compare. Additionally, there's not the same drunkenness, and I'd always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that this was the reason why children were not supposed to be there as the evening wore on. I'm sure many in the Capitol - in the example given - will have been there a while come 9pm and will be in a fair state of refreshment.
'At the end of the day' (first cliche of the week) you are trying to bend a type of institution to a purpose different to that for which it was conceived. Pubs are for drinking and I'm not sure that's ever going to be an entirely suitable environment for children. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 30 April, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
It would be nice to see this back on the main site –my views are restricted to SE23 and adjacent areas and not to my holiday destinations.
Back to an adjacent areas – my source tells me that an old Victorian back-street boozer than has just re-opened recently after a refurb. It used to be the Ivanhoe, in Ivanhoe Rd, East Dulwich
http://www.hoopersbar.co.uk/home.html Anyone been.
And similarly BD has yet to try out the Angle Bar – noting all the heated discussion on a thread.
And finally getting on my high horse I do not see any issue with commenting on a disappointment that a nice historic frontage to a local boozer has been painted over. Yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’d happily see New Scotland Yard and Buckingham Palace remodelled (ugly buildings from different eras) but some may find them attractive. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 30 April, 2007 - 06:24 pm: | |
See www.hoopersbar.co.uk/events.html for an exciting event this weekend |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 30 April, 2007 - 06:26 pm: | |
Kids in pubs can be annoying. I should know I have a couple of them. The Woodhouse seemed to get the right balance a few years ago when the kids could play in the trees and by the hedge until the snotty neighbour complained. It then seemed to get far more rowdy, perhaps as those who used to frequent the Harvester moved up the hill (now I am sounding like a snob). I’ve also had frequent diatribes on the hypocrisy of the Woodhouse, that makes so much money out of families yet makes it clear that they are not allowed anywhere inside, with the most unfriendly of signs. I suppose in short there should be family friendly pubs that cater for this audience (apart from the Harvester/ Beefeaters etc), and those that cater almost exclusively for an adult audience (as pointed out our pub culture is very different to the rest of the world). And also kids would probably prefer to run around the park as pointed out. A couple of pubs that are child friendly without being overrun are the Gowlett and the Nunshead. Be interesting to hear the views of others. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 30 April, 2007 - 11:56 pm: | |
I don't think it's fair to say that pubs are 'for' drinking. If they are 'for' anything (in terms of their useful function within society) surely they are for socialising. And I resent the idea that responsible drinkers with kids should be banned in order to pander to those who drink too much. If it's called anti-social behaviour elsewhere, why should it be tolerated in a pub? Ultimately of course, pubs are for the owners to make money through, and I reckon they should be free to target whichever market they like. In most cases this will be the heavy drinking crowd, as they hand over the most cash, but what I'm suggesting is that maybe there is also a market for one family friendly pub in Forest Hill.
I've found Lewisham's Licencing Policy:
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/AED9A862-4 1F0-44DD-855D-4DFC5102CE5F/0/licensingpolicy.pdf (see 8.0 Children on page 19).
I also found Greenwich's and it's very similar. It seems that allowing, or disallowing, children in after 9pm is actually up to the local authority on a venue by venue basis. The policy says "The Council will not seek to limit the access of children to licensed premises unless it is necessary to protect children from harm." So if a pub choses to run itself in a way that avoids harm to children (such as does The Dolphin) there should be no reason for the Council to limit parents with kids to a certain timeframe.
On the topic of alcohol and anti-social behaviour, here's an idea and I would be interested to hear opinions on - a legal blood-alcohol level limit for simply being out in public. We currently have such a legal limit for driving vehicles. As there is also geconsensus amongst the majority of the population that we'd like to dissuade excessive drinking, why not have the same type of blood-alcohol limit just for being out in public? I'd suggest setting the limit to something equivalent to about 4 pints for women and 5 or 6 for men. Beyond that I'd say most people are getting out of control and not doing themselves or anyone else (except the pub manager) any good. Obviously we would need police out on the streets conducting random breathalisation, but I reckon that it would be more than paid for by the reduction in alcohol related accidents, crimes, and healthcare costs that the public purse currently has to shell out for. Pubs would need to find a way to make up for lost revenues, but this could be done perhaps by lowering the duty on alcoholic drinks and letting the pubs keep a larger share, or by the pubs simply instating a table charge or something. Good idea? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 06:43 am: | |
Its a good idea however the problem would be that people's thresholds vary; I could never get to 4 pints- two would be enough for me in one sitting after which I'd need help in standing up. Some men could manage 10 pints without showing signs of wear. I also thought that pub staff had discretion about serving people when drunk but clearly this would be financial ruin for most of them. Besides, its not only the amount that people drink, its the combination, ie snakebites, which get people drunk faster. In Iceland alcohol in pubs is exhorbitantly expensive by law in order to stop the same problems of over indulgence, especially in the dark winter, but kids just drink at home before going out. However I can see something like this coming as everyone battles to reduce the social effects of excessive drinking in young people.
There are also apparently moves to restrict parents giving their children small amounts of alcohol at home; I think this is a mistake as the earlier kids learn to respect it the better. I was given small amounts when around 8-9 years old at family gatherings- Guinness was a favourite as was lager. As a result I developed a take it or leave it attitude and could never understand other school kids who went off binge drinking the minute they were allowed out alone.
I still think its a common cultural problem in the UK especially and any solution needs to take this into account; the rest of Europe seems to take alcohol in their stride; France especially where kids are taught about food and wine early on. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 08:00 am: | |
I know people's tolerance varies, but that's the same for driving isn't it? If fact, driving speed limits are even the same. Excellent drivers in well engineered cars might be pretty safe driving around urban roads at 40, but dodgy drivers in clunking old deathtraps might not really be safe above 20. That doesn't stop us having a speed limit of 30 though. And a blood-alcohol limit is slightly better than that in fact, as it does depend on your body size.
I can't see how making alcohol more and more expensive can be the answer. As you say, Roz, this just leads people drinking more at home and probably to more dodgy black market booze as we already have in the UK. It also discriminates unfairly according to wealth - the rich can drink to excess with the poor can't. The only winner is Gordon Brown.
What we need to do is eliminate the cultural acceptability of being excessively drunk. I said in my last post that we'd need police on the street randomly breathalising people, but if you think about drink driving, actually there are very few random breath tests happening, but people still don't drink and drive much in the UK compared to most other countries. It seems to me that this is due to a strong feeling in our culture these days that it's unacceptable. This wouldn't have been the case a few decades ago but things society has changed, and this gives me hope that the same could be applied to excessive drinking in general. I certainly did a fair bit of excessive drinking when I was younger, but I think a blood-alcohol limit would have made it socially acceptable to stick to moderate drinking, and I probably would have had a lot more fun too. Does anyone actually enjoy drinking ten pints more than five? |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 08:38 am: | |
Ooperlooper, What are you proposing to do when I drink more than my five pints of beer? Will I be put in jail, driven home courtesy of the police, or made to stay in the pub until I have sobered up?
If you are going to criminalise intoxication, because of the anti-social behaviour of a minority, you might as well go for complete prohibition. Rather than these draconian methods society needs to encourage responsible drinking from a younger age. And that does not mean allowing rollerskating children into pubs, as I saw in Forest Hill this weekend. |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
I can't believe that that there has been a serious suggestion of criminalising 'excessive' alcohol intake. This is extremism worthy of the most totalitarian state. Perhaps there would be space at the end of the bill to add on a bit about thought crimes too?
Incredible. |
Dave
Joined 11-01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 10:56 am: | |
I think the point isn't about the intake - it's about the effect, as Roz is saying above.
Afraid to say that there are already plenty of statutes in place criminalising excessive alcohol intake - when this causes drunk and disorderly behaviour (thankfully nobody is suggesting random breath tests for people wandering along the street minding their own business). Whether this means we live in a nanny/totalitarian state, or simply have a means of enforcement of a social contract which asks people to respect their fellow citizens is maybe another discussion.
http://www.respect.gov.uk/members/article.aspx?id= 7980 contains some interesting information and links on this.
The Licencing Act which introduced the more flexible regime on timekeeping, with which we are all now hopefully familiar, also firmed up a lot of safeguards in terms of the ability of pub/bar staff to refuse to serve someone/ask them to leave if they believe that person to be drunk. |
Applespider
Joined 26-02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
Coming from an Italian background, we were regularly given watered down wine at dinner. Alcohol wasn't a great surprise when we got old enough to want to drink it unwantered and although I've had my share of drunken evenings, I've never got to the stage of being incapable of getting myself home in a reasonable fashion.
Rationing is not the answer - it just encourages the idea that there's a limit to go beyond and challenge. And the other key point about how drink effects you is the time you're drinking over. Downing 4 pints in an hour would give drastically different results than having 4 pints spread across 4 hours in the pub watching sport.
So far as kids go, I'm in two minds. Where a pub serves food and during the day, I can't really see there being a problem with having them in there so long as they're reasonably well-behaved. I don't particularly want to be in a pub where there's a TV showing Disney cartoons to keep them occupied though.
At 9pm though, I guess I'm of the old school where I'd expect younger kids to be in bed (or getting ready for it) by 9! |
Johnc
Joined 09-01-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 01:41 pm: | |
On the subject of watering down alcohol. I've come across a number of landlords in my time that have followed this policy with some gusto! |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 02:19 pm: | |
Dave,
The way I read it, it does seem exactly as if it is being suggested that the consumption rather than the results are criminalised, and that this is enforced via random breathalisation.
As you point out, there is already legislation against being drunk and disorderly; it is the disorderly part that is important; effect rather than cause. The linkage is of course relatively weak in that it is found only in a minority of people. The state is right to mind its own business about your blood alcohol level if you are making your way home peaceably.
It's fortunate that 'More Laws' Tony isn't a fan of this site and that his days are numbered, or it'd probably be proposed :(
Existing legislation is more than adequate and is not framed in extremist terms. Any problems are with its enforcement.
So great to see the spirit of Mill lives on... |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 02:31 pm: | |
As in 'John Stuart Mill of his own free will, on half a pint of shandy was particularly ill'? |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 03:29 pm: | |
Quite. He'd be alright. But presumably Generalissimo Ooperlooper would like to see Kant get an ASBO |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 10:04 pm: | |
Michael, I'd propose you being given probably an on the spot fines, with something strickter if you offend persistently. But I'd rather you just stuck to drinking under the limit. Why would you want to drink that much anyway? Of course, if you really wanted to, you would be allowed to get stupifyingly bladdered at home, where you'd not be bothering other people.
Just how do you propose to encourage responsible drinking from a younger age? Thinking back a few years to when I was a binge drinking youngster, I really don't think that pubs banning happy hours would have made any differece. I don't think they even had them, actually, and that certainly didn't stop me. What would have worked would have been the expectation of being fined for being over the limit.
I take the point that there is already legislation against being drunk and disorderly, but then again if you think that's enough, then presumably by the same logic you think that laws against dangerous driving are also enough, and we should abolish the drink driving blood-alcohol limit and speed limits?
Well does anyone else have any actionable ideas for reducing the problems of excessive drinking? Ban pints and halves and make us all order in quarters, one at a time? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 10:26 pm: | |
I still think the only sustainable answer is to change the drinking culture, but haven't a clue how. The northern European countries such as Denmark, Holland and Germany have this problem to an extent but its so less evident in France, Spain, Portugal, even Italy,( apart from during major footie matches). The ' pub' is a cornerstone of British life and relies too much on young people getting drunk and swelling their coffers. Maybe with the smoking ban there may be a change in clientele which is turn will influence drinking patterns. More roller skating kids in pubs may do something interesting to pub behaviour and alcohol consumption( see further up this thread) so don't knock them just yet. Other than that, I dont have an answer for you OL, as everything seems to be scratching their heads on this one. How about raising the drinking/pub entry age back up to 21? |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 10:28 pm: | |
I meant everyone is scratching their heads.... |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
Last year several posters from this website decided to get together and walk around the pubs of SE23. They had a nice walk, drank some good beer, ate some food and went home. They were no doubt a little tired from their long day and, most likely, a touch the worse for wear. But I don't belive any severe social disorder resulted from the gathering. A subsequent, although less prolonged, event took place organised by the Forest Hill Society. Again drink was taken. Over five pints worth in the case of many.
Ooperlooper and Roz want to make the actions of those who attended these gatherings an offence. I'd like to be able to say "unbelievable". But perhaps in some way it's a blessing that we do have a small minority in society who are so fanatically anti-libertarian (qv Roz's recent attempts to censor the post of another individual because she didn't like their sense of humour) as it reminds us of how precious our liberty actually is and the need to keep vigilant in protecting it from those who would take it from us. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 02 May, 2007 - 12:57 pm: | |
Rather than fining me on the well behaved pub crawl, I would prefer fining pubs that persistently serve alcohol to people who are clearly too drunk. Removing sugar content and artificial flavourings from alcoholic drinks may also be a good idea. I have nothing against alcopops other than it is too easy for people to drink lots of them without realizing. I remember when I was younger few pubs would sell "snakebite and black" (lager, cider, blackcurrent) because it is a particularly easy to drink and intoxicating combination.
More weak beer, wine, and significantly lower prices on soft drinks. That will help reduce the problem far better than marching drunks (or people over whatever limit you impose) to the cash point. |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 02 May, 2007 - 06:17 pm: | |
Quick, someone call the police! This thread's been hijacked!
Ooperlooper, I must say I totally disagree with you, but rather than have this discussion here can we maybe move this discussion to a separate thread? This one is supposed to be about where you CAN drink, assuming it hasn't been made illegal yet. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 02 May, 2007 - 09:44 pm: | |
Ah, but what about the civil liberties of other people, like those terrified passengers on the train from London Bridge the other night when four or five drunk young morons threatened to kick the proverbial out of several passengers for being "effing foreign pieces of s***". Is the right of the ten-pint pub crawler more important than the rights of (if you'll forgive the stereotype for a minute) little old ladies who'd like to pop down the pub for a swift half on a Friday night without fear? I'm not sure.
Getting a bit off topic indeed. Not really about SE23, eh? Nice to hear some other opinions about my idea though. Not sure I'm convinved of it myself, by the way. Thanks.
The jazz in All Inn One was a really quite good a few weeks ago when I happened to be in there one day. The place looks a bit rough on the outside, but it's surprisingly mellow in there. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 05:33 am: | |
Dear Toffeejim, I was not seeking to censor behaviour in this thread but actually, joining in a debate and seeking to propose a solution for discussion. Seemingly you seem to want to prevent such discussion, so how does this sit with your views of civil liberties exactly? A little bit fascistic in itself, perhaps? Try perhaps to actually read and understand the posts a bit more and the context in which they are made before lashing out.
Yes, I do object to posts that take very lightly crude sexist analogies and severe social problems, ie wife beating - (hilarious subject isn't it)so no apologies given there. |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 08:32 am: | |
So being drunk turns people into racist thugs, or is it that racist thugs get drunk? And shouldn't we simply lock up all young people - since it was 'young people' who committed this particular crime?
Rather than wasting police time marching people to cash points let them tackle real criminals whether drunk or not.
I happen to agree with Roz that the label attached to Stella is pretty tasteless (as is the beer), and I would prefer it if people did not use that term. But I think we should be grown up enough to object and move on rather than censoring the postings which have now been removed. It is a shame when censorship is regarded as a better answer than arguing your case, just like banning people from drinking is not the answer to violent behaviour in society. |
Webmaster
Joined 01-01-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 08:38 am: | |
Michael, you say posts have been removed. Which posts? |
Dave
Joined 11-01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 09:53 am: | |
Maybe the suspicion of removal has arisen from the face that the whole Paris/domestic abuse exchange actually originated in another thread?
See ../1003/1098.html"#f7f7f7"> | Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
My apologies to the webmaster.
These threads are going rather off-topic so it is difficult to know where to look. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 12:45 pm: | |
Most threads get hijacked.
Back to pubs, the Question is having a speed dating night. Not the drug of my choice - but others may be interested and good to have some feedback. And perhaps Rob could help show some photos of my local pre and post makeover for views to judge the difference. |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 01:29 pm: | |
happy to oblige on the photo front, if I get around before it is too changed already
As for speed dating, I thought it was in Bar Equal? Or is the challenge of this event to put all the blokes in Question Bar and the ladies in Bar Equal, then see which of the 'fit' blokes gets to Honor Oak first? That could be an entirely new take on 'speed' dating |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 02:59 pm: | |
Dear Roz,
I don't want to prevent discussion and I don't understand what makes you say that I do. I read your post very carefully indeed before responding to it. You support the introduction of a law that would forbid me to go out in public if I had a high level of alcohol in my blood, irrespective of any effect it might have on my behaviour. I think this would be an extraordinary curtailment on my liberty and deserves to be criticised accordingly. By all means defend your position further but please don't suggest that I have failed to understand your position when you have made it perfectly plain.
My criticism of your desire to censor PVP's post has nothing to do with the subject matter. It is your desire for censorship as opposed to rebuttal that I take issue with. But Michael has covered this point quite adequately already. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 05:52 pm: | |
Was in the Capitol the other day on my regular (twice a year) visit. There was a beer fest on. I tried really really hard to give it a fair chance. But the beer still tasted of treacle. Is it part of their half price deal that they get all the strong stuff at the bottom of the barrel? Any other views out there? |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 07:48 pm: | |
I wasn't suggesting banning drinking entirely, just bringing in a new way to incentivise people to not drink excessively. I'm a bit surprised so many people want to defend excessive drinking. What's so great about it? Can someone explain?
Excessive drinking is clearly correlated in some way with violence, as shown by statistics such as: http://www.marininstitute.org/alcohol_policy/viole nce.htm and http://www.crimereduction.gov.uk/toolkits/ar020101 .htm
...though I've also read that whether there's a causal link is still not clear. Well I for one would be happy to give up a few of those pints if it reduced some of that crime.
The Goose in Catford has to be one of the best value pubs in the area. A decent bottle of Aussie Cabernet Shiraz was only about six quid when I was in there a few months ago. The beer's a bargain too - Tetley's bitter at just over two quid. But almost complete lack of female customers is a bit weird. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 07:50 pm: | |
Where do all their new guest ales keep coming from? Are some of them just the same beers with different labels on each month? |
Bigjulie
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 03 May, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
I had a couple of pints of a Spring Ale in the Capitol the other day and they were very nice indeed. |
Johnc
Joined 09-01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, 04 May, 2007 - 09:15 am: | |
I understand, although it may be an urban myth, that JDW buys his beers cheaper due to them being fairly close to their use by dates, and relies on high throughput to clear them. Consequently they are not always at their best |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 04 May, 2007 - 10:23 am: | |
Ooperlooper, I find your arguments a little bizarre.
Clearly there is a correlation between alcohol and violence in that in many violent incidents, many of those involved have been drinking, but here you commit a major error of inductive reasoning. It is the fault in your reasoning that permits us to defend the right to drink excessively, whether or not we happen to think it is enjoyable or a good idea.
Of course, you will find the best possible correlation between maleness and violence, with correlation approaching 1.0. You will also find a good correlation between age and violence. Further high correlations are to be found between mugging and some ethnic groups, and between burglary and others. But as I'm sure will now be apparent, it would be quite outrageous to make the same sort of inductive deduction from these facts that you have done with drinking. |
Pvp
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 04 May, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
Johnc - yes, heard the same off many people in the trade. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, 04 May, 2007 - 09:25 pm: | |
There's a difference; drinking is a choice.
Most Americans who own guns don't go around shooting people, but that doesn't mean I want to live in a society where everyone is allowed to carry a gun. Would you share this opinion FSS Secretary, and if so why wouldn't you apply the same logic to excessive drinking? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 04 May, 2007 - 11:43 pm: | |
What a great thread, there is me desparately trying to stimulate conversation about pubs, whilst others are having more philosophical arguments. And there was me thinking I'd been kicked out of the premiership to find out life is much more fun in the lower depths of SE23.
So tried the Hooperbar tonight - coincidentally also run by a Jamie but unlike that other place and several other nearby pubs a real free house, ie Mr Hooper actually owns the place. A real brave attempt and I hope that others give it a go, particularly challenging as it really is a back street local, and whilst I thought it was in East Dulwich, is actually more Peckham/Camberwell borders, well out of our postcode and a fair walk from the 175 and 186 (get off at Champion Hill).
The place has been nicely decked out without being, uh hum, too twee if you get my hint. A good range of beers and at least the ubiquitous Magners has the alternative Weston's cider (horay). Will be putting on food in a few month's time, and welcome's ankle biters without being totally overun with kids. Did not reach any critical mass in terms of atmosphere tonight, I hope that some of you will give it a go and also share your opinions.
Back to life - one of my favourite lyrics (beyond you are about as easy as a nuclear war) is "Killers in America work seven days a week". Name that tune.
Oh it is on Ivanhoe Road, a sort of nowhere land between Peckham's conservation area, Dog Kennel Hill and East Dulwich. |
Fhssecretary
Joined 12-10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 06 May, 2007 - 07:03 pm: | |
"I'm so bored of the USA", The Clash. Solved without the use of Google.
The issue of guns is another non-sequitur. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 06 May, 2007 - 11:22 pm: | |
Err, I mean if we can ban guns on the grounds that they are related to increased incidence of violence and crime and/or related to increased severity of violence and crime, even though the vast majority of gun owners wouldn't actually cause any violence or crime whatsoever, why can't we, and don't we, also ban excessive intake of alcohol on the same grounds, and achieve the same sort of results? Just because the majority do not cause problems, that doesn't seem to me to necessarily be a compelling argument for allowing everyone to do something and waiting until the violence and crime actually occurs before dealing with it.
Another good selection for men looking to avoid women is the Catford Ram. In fact it's a good place if you want to avoid other people entirely, preferring to mumble to yourself behind a copy of the Racing Post at four in the afternoon over your eighth festering pint of Hook Norton Old Shoe Leather Porter. As an added bonus, the fug of Old Holborn and vinegarised ale in the carpets will hide your three day body odour. Okay, I exaggerate a little, but you get the idea. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 08 May, 2007 - 06:19 am: | |
At risk of being called a censor yet again ( and wrongly yes indeedy) can we please stick to the subject of the thread, ( as there are now several threads on the subject of local pubs) and if necessary can another thread be established called something like ;
' Philosophical musings arising from discussions on other threads on the subject of alcohol consumption and potential abuse of same'.
Or something like that. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 10 May, 2007 - 10:19 pm: | |
Good news that the Greyhound has been saved from demolition. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 17 May, 2007 - 08:39 pm: | |
Cycling past an old haunt, the Goat House, in South Norwood (always a favourite after a successful outing to Selhurs Park) I noted that the pub had dissapeared. Is there mining subsidence or has it been beamed up by aliens? Can anyone help?? It was a truly nice place, with jazz on a Sunday, and separate rooms, long before YOHO and the other gastros came on the scene. Admitedly I didn't go once it had been turned into a 'sports' pub, but we are still losing another lovely pub building (unless of course the aliens put it back). |
Bigjulie
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 17 May, 2007 - 08:46 pm: | |
...and about half a mile up the road from the Goat House I noticed a conspicuous gap where the Robin Hood used to be. Must be aliens... |
Bigjulie
Joined 09-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 17 May, 2007 - 08:48 pm: | |
Baggydave - I guess you didn't go to the Goat House very often! |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 17 May, 2007 - 08:53 pm: | |
Glad to see this thread caused so much interest. Check out http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread/t-45492.html for some discussion on where it went. Also found a reference on Wikipedia - it was where the Croydon Canal had an island where they fed goats - but surely canals don't have goats! |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 17 May, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
The Goat House was my local for a year and a half in the early nineties and it was a cracking pub. Lovely snug sprung benches set in little alcoves and the elderly retired landlord in every night to keep an avuncular eye on things. It also served an immaculate pint of London Pride. So good in fact that I've never had another to match it. Is anybody else familiar with this odd foible of London Pride that is so often so very average? Can anybody tell me where an immaculate pint is still available? Not in the Goat House. By the way it got burned out in the late 90's and was never the same after being refitted and (I assume) under new management. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 20 May, 2007 - 09:49 am: | |
For those who like the clean, refreshing taste of Old Bear Hibernator, RCH Old Slug Porter and Triple F Pressed Rat and Warthog (yum yum, I'll have mine with a twist of badger, please), the 15th annual CAMRA beer fest is on in Catford between 6 and 9 June. http://www.selcamra.org.uk/BeerFest.htm. Don't forget to wear socks with your sandals (they soak up spillage which towards the end of the evening that you can wring into a glass for a bonus pint), and note that prosthetic beard, pipe and paunch sets will be available for hire on the door if you don't have your own. |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 21 May, 2007 - 03:31 pm: | |
I shall be there with my wallet full of socks to sniff out the most peculiarly named beer I can find. I was lucky to down a few pints of Monks Scabby Foot before those metric nuts on the continent went and outlawed it. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 22 May, 2007 - 12:11 am: | |
Thanks for the reminder of the Catford Beer Fest. Perhaps the last one there, as LBL are being a bit difficult about the venue.
Was in Mr Lawrence's wine bar tonight, clearly a most wonderful establishment that I commend to all (and in this case I am being most serious, folks)
Happy talkin', talkin Happy talk
Talk about things you'd like to do
You've got to have a dream
If you don't have a dream
How you gonna have a dream come true |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 06 June, 2007 - 11:30 pm: | |
I had a lovely pint tonight at the Jolly Woodman, Chancery Lane, Becknum. Even though I generally detest the White supremisists who live out that way, and the pub sign that looks more like a leprechaun (plastic paddy pub) than a woodman. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 08 June, 2007 - 10:04 am: | |
Ahem, not prejudiced at all is it, to assume the population of an area is characterised by "white supremacists" (sp)?!
I also think it is a little glib to overlook the tensions faced by communities exposed to large-scale immigration and the rapid change it can cause, and simply attribute people's fears to ignorance or racism. It is easy to criticise from a position of comfort, when what is really needed is to be more 'critical', in the true sense of the word.
Shame on you BD. |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 08 June, 2007 - 01:40 pm: | |
Aww. Come on. You should know that BD has his tongue planted firmly in his cheek with nearly every post. This is probably not the forum to debate these issues. I suggest the Blythe Hill Tavern. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 09 June, 2007 - 12:36 pm: | |
Right, OK, gloves off. Of course Bromley and Becknum aren't full of people voting BNP and looking for exiting out of the EU. But in my regular dealings with the good people of this outer London borough, my do many of them have strong and ignorant views which seem to be driven by the Daily Mail. How do you respond when someone says they used to live in Forest Hill in the good old days, before 'they' (as they hush their voice) moved in, giving you a knowing look. Then go onto give their views, unsolicitated, about Eastern and Central European economic migrants. (Well, clearly, ytou should address this but it still leaves me feeling down). And then onto views about overseas call centres "over there, taking our jobs" (Taken from Privite Eye before someone else has a go at me). (of coure Baggy Dave always likes to find out what the weather is etc in Bangalore).
Now BD likes living in a multi-cultural area, acknowledging of course that it is not a utopia and their are always some form of community tensions. He just wishes some of these people he labelled above would look at the positive side of multi-culturalism. And he can't believe how just four miles down the road demographics change so much.
But back to business, it is a fine pub, as is the BHT where I spent a lovely hour after the beer fest last night. |
Hilltopgeneral
Joined 24-03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 13 June, 2007 - 10:34 am: | |
Very easy for you to say, Dave.
I tend to believe that the net effect of immmigration is positive, but unlike you I realise that not only does the net position involve both positive and negative effects but that the effects are not experienced uniformly.
Generally, the mobile middle classes (such as you and I) are exposed almost exclusively to the positive effects, whereas the less educated, affluent and mobile who lived in once-cohesive urban communities that were subjected to a devastating rate of demographic change are quite disproportionately subject to the negative affects.
There has been no referendum on mass immigration and no attempt at control. I think that you should respect the fact that people can be inherently conservative and unsettled by change, and are uncomfortable about something they were never asked about and which they perceive to have had a negative effect on their lives.
Your slur on the indigenous working and lower middle classes of outer London is in its own way quite as ignorant as the comments you report. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 - 06:15 pm: | |
So a throw away comment has really wound you up; now how long have you felt this way about me - I feel some pent up anger here. But please do get your facts right. I was having a gentle dig at some of the people I know in outer London. They have very different views to me on most issues. Occasionally one of them comes out with an offensive comment. I wish I could be like you and engage with them over this, explore why they feel that they have to say this, what their insecurities are and how they should embrace diversity. Clearly I am not so
erudite and confident in my abilities and vocabularly as your good self and feel that the only way I can respond is make cheap comments at their expense. Oh why oh why did I not describe them as 'angry of Tunbridge Wells' or 'Daily Mail land'. No doubt that would have upset your sensibilities as well.
Shame that no one else is joining in whether they agree with me or you as this is a more interesting discussion than anything else here at present.
And for your further information I was talking about generally well educated and successful business type professionals, who could easily been like the people you described me and thee as, except somewhere along the line they took rather different views on life. I wasn't talking about some of my mates at the Den, or for balance, the Hawthorns, or anyone who lives in a trailer park - look forward for your further views on that slur.
Now a couple of lovely stories that I would love to share.
Many years ago Baggy had been to an anti-war gig at the Red Rose in Islington, with lots of other liberal types who we could all congratulate ourselves on our lefty credentials. I missed the last train and ended up at West Norwood. That day at work I had decided to clear my personal stuff at work, and put it in my large very trendy Brixton Cycles cycle courier bag. I was wearing my hooded cycle sweatshirt. Being too tight to get a taxi I decided to run home, being a cold night I put my hood up. A cop car passed going in the opposite direction. Wouldn't that be fun if it stopped I thought and I could ask them for a lift home. It duly turned round, wound down the window and the young police officers asked me what I was doing. I pulled down my hood, and they looked surprised and said "they hadn't realised how old I was" and that I could go on. Pull the other one. If only I had had the education provided by our current conversation I would have been better armed to challenge them on the assumption that I was a young hoody (probably of different ethnicity to myself) who'd just broken into a house.
And more relevant to my argument. Last week I received a mysterious text message asking me out for a romantic dinner. Not recognising the voice I phoned to speak to a laughing Scouser, who realised with some embarrassment that he had texted the wrong person. He made a joke about my lucky night, and I made a similar reply that it was a shame he wasn't off the opposite gender. He subsequently sent me another message saying that he was actually asking a male out, and it was a shame as I had a nice voice. That made my evening, and whilst I am reasonably certain of my personal situation, I thanked him for the compliment. I was telling the story to some of the people from Bromley, clearly I was flattered, but the shock on their faces when they thought about men loving men. Even explaining that it was simply flattering, irrespective of gender did not get through to them. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 23 June, 2007 - 05:08 pm: | |
Found another enlightened pub that doesn't kick you out at 9pm for the heinous crime of having a toddler with you - The Grove in Denmark Hill/Camberwell, about 10 mins walk from Denmark Hill station. http://www.grovecamberwell.co.uk/
Nice pub - bit like The Dolphin (similar mismatching chair theme) with slightly louder music. Lovely pint of Erdinger Weissbrau and not crowded even on a Friday night.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&q=&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=51.469836,-0.087161&spn=0.011682,0.02605& z=15&om=1&msid=114214471568699027701.000001135984928c22673
Ten mins walk from Denmark Hill station area. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 23 June, 2007 - 05:42 pm: | |
Grove never recovered from the chrome and glass makeover in the 90s (IMHO). I'll revert to my bible (BITE) to see what they say. Twas a most excellent traditional pub. But I do like Camberwell as it is very much living on the edge. Unlike outer London. And they don't even have a train station let alone a tube. What was worse was the various makeovers of the Pheonix, which was for many a year by far the best pub for miles. It's recovered a little bit since the crime of making it an O'Neals. |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 23 June, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
The beer's cold, there's no alcoholic landlord slumped at the end of the bar, no sweaty pub dog in the corner, no fag tar dripping down the walls, and there's real food on the menu, not just stale peanuts and pork scratchings. So I guess it's not a traditional boozer. Not lots of chrome and glass either though. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 24 June, 2007 - 08:52 am: | |
There's cold and cold. Proper beer should be at a proper temperature, you can keep your super ice cold lager and Guinness - the taste buds don't pick up the subtle flavours below a certain temperature.
Anyway, just a memory from around ten years ago, not picking a fight (as of course I normally am). And I don't know why you equate traditional boozer with the attributes you list above - that is clearly a poorly managed dive, although it can be a close call at times. Going back to my pub bible (BITE) most of the discussion is over recent management of the place and the quality of the pizzas. Most of the comment is pretty positive, I just haven't been there since they chromed and glassed the front bar (which from what you say has had a further make over since)so I will keep with my memories.
And as Baggy Dave is not just here to provoke debate and stir up argument you should check out both the Gowlett in Peckham (East Dulwich if you prefer) and the sister pub the Nuns Head, both very ankle bighter friendly and have kept more of their character than perhaps some of the refits, many of which should no longer be described as pubs as they have become restaurants. Rather than refer to BITE, thought the Time Out review may be considered to have less of a real ale skew on it:
www.timeout.com/london/bars/reviews/8997.html
But also I like the slightly self-deprecating stuff on their own web site:
www.thegowlett.com/
More fascinating to me is the discussion on the nearby Pheonix and Furkin in Denmark Hill - as remarked earlier such a wonderful pub when I first came to London. David Bruce, ex Boddingtons Brewer (when they were a regional independent), first opened the Goose and Furkin in the Elephant and by the early 80s had five others including the Fox in Lewisham where we used to go for a great sing song in our Pearly kings and Queens outfits (well not really) and the most wonderful former railway station the Pheonix (rising from the flames after the station burnt down). The pubs all had their own breweries, at a time when this was a novel idea (or at least hadn't been seen in the 20th century). A victim of it's own success, they aquired and renovated more pubs, then sold the chain onto the big brewers, then pub chains, then it was just a brand, then it became an O'Neills. But there it has reverted to it's original name and gone through a bit of a renascence. Only some of the older postings on BITE talk about the original P & F.
The biggest O'Neills crime was the Graften in Strutton Ground of Victoria. It was called the Grafton as it was run/owned by the gent who wrote sketches for the Goon Show, recorded near by. Up until the mid 90s it had loads of Goons paraphernalia including framed photographs of all the 60s and 70s TV/radio comics in the pub, Prince Charles etc etc. Now BD wasn't even alive when the Goons were on air, nor could he recount a sketch. But this was such a wonderful place, and could have been marketed as such. Then it became an O'Neills. End of story. Market forces don't always work for the good (eg Magners)and there should be more listing and protection of places like this (and even the Sydenham Greyhound). |
Ooperlooper
Joined 28-06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 24 June, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
I've yet to try of that Coors -2.5 degree beer (http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=15985&in_page_id=2) but I can't wait to give it a go. Mmm...refreshing.
Well if those attributes don't make a traditional boozer, then what does? Could it be ceiling beams and doorframes that tall people have adopt a permanent stoop to avoid? Perhaps dinginess is a factor? Or perhaps having to waste 15 minutes of your evening at the bar waiting to be served when you could have spent that time with your friends if only they had table service (sadly still all too prevalent). How about staff and patrons who snidely poo-poo any order of wine, cocktails, soft drinks, etc?
RIP the macho, mead-drinking dens of dispair, I say.
Why this British obsession with preserving yesteryear? As I said in another thread, when people die we bury or cremate them with dignity, cherish our memories and get on with our lives. We don't pickle them in vinegar, prop them on the couch and pretend they still want to watch the telly with us.
Thanks for the recommendations of the Gowlett and Nun's Head. Haven't tried yet. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 24 June, 2007 - 06:32 pm: | |
Well perhaps we will meet in the Gowlett or the Nuns Head someday! Hope you do visit and see that pubs can be refurbished and retain some of their original character. I'll be the one in the corner, bemoaning the lack of smoking and giving my unsolicited views on designer ciders (what ever did happen to Diamond White?). For info this is me in 1963: www.letterboxdvd.co.uk/cart.php?m=features&id=13 Yes SE23, I do bear a resemblence to the Great Albert Finney |
Elizabeth25
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 02 July, 2007 - 03:52 pm: | |
OK--any reports on smoke-free Britian? Happy, not happy? Has it made your local better or worse? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 08 July, 2007 - 06:54 pm: | |
Apologies for not posting recently. Pubs now smell of strange things like sweet yeast (a smell from stading outside boozers in my childhood) and BO.
Baggy has moved from constructive criticism to detailed advice for the James' of YOHO - see varios threads on the premiership site. He will be returning to normal service on this lower league idc.
Oh and in case you think I was a mistreated child, this was not standing outside with a packed of crisps and a dandelion and burdock, but Midland Red (who made better buses than London Transport did) had a bus stop by one of the boozers. |
Dotcom
Joined 21-04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 09 July, 2007 - 10:32 am: | |
You still stand outside the Moor Park Tavern don't you? |
Perryman
Joined 12-12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, 09 July, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
I suspect all the air con units/extractors will be turned off now the smokers have left the pubs, as they are expensive things to run.
But what about peolpe with severe BO and sufferers from chronic flatulence? They were relatively unnoticed before. Should we have a period of stinky/non stinky zones in pubs or go straight to the out right ban?
Who will join me for a pint in the smelly zone? |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 09 July, 2007 - 11:11 am: | |
Or would it be ok if the smokers stuck their heads out of the window like Charles Kennedy on a train? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 09 July, 2007 - 11:21 pm: | |
I pass the MPT daily and wistfully think about the smell of beer... particularly now they have made the FHT into another flatpack pub.
As for the suggestions about different zones, that does seem like a runner so forget the snug, bar, lounge, smoking room etc pubs can be partitioned a little like mens and ladies toilets in that they can have areas with very different fragrances. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 14 July, 2007 - 03:12 pm: | |
Time for a brief lesson on Sydenham pubs as they are featuring on my other thread. BD lived in SE26 (shock horror) for 8 years in the 80s and 90s. His locals were the Bricklayers (good honnest youngs pub), the Fox and Hounds, Woodman and the Greyhound. And for a while they were all pretty decent places. I don't know where it started to go wrong, no doubt in part due to poor managers, and for the Greyhound some pretty bad makeovers, a change of name, the loss of the greyhound statues from the old Croydon railway and a paint job from hell. Anyway in quick succession they became dives, which is a shame. My bible 'BITE' agrees with me. BD has a mate who is well into pbu architecture and sees beyond the syringes and gooey carpets. He is trying to save our wonderful Victorian heritage, and is a big fan of the Golden Lion (a place I wrongly never frequented due to its fame for the murder 20 years ago - the family still have many issues). The worst was over the road, the Dolphin. That was alwasys horrid, but I have yet to check out the refurb. Heard very mixed views but I have to give respect to the landlord and owner of this and the Dartmouth, as his favourite pub is the Blythe.
I also went to the 'crims' pubs once up Wells Park Road, quite an experience (only one left now).
Back to the Greyhound, such a wonderful pub particualarly the interior, and good memories. On the entertainment front it was doing a YOHO, long before that pub existed with R&B, Jazz, occasional indie, and the weekly cabaret. But that was 15 years ago....
Intersted for views, particularly NASROC |
Thomas
Joined 14-03-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, 14 July, 2007 - 03:21 pm: | |
The Dulwich Wood House is pretty good - good beer and a nice pretty location (hard to believe that you are only 6 miles or so from Charing Cross). On Wells Park Road the Duke closed several months ago and now has planning permission to be turned into flats (see discussion on the sydenham town forum for more details), so just the Talma left on that road. The Dolphin is very nice, well worth checking out, but not your traditional British boozer. Does anyone know anything more about the Fox & Hounds, which has just been closed for refurbishment? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 14 July, 2007 - 04:34 pm: | |
Read my thread on another pub bites the dust. Looks like flats. BITE gives it a better right-up than I would.
Woodhouse suffered from indifferent management (now retired after running the Morpeth close to Tate modern), their attitude to kids (yes families, please do come, but not when the garden is closed, and the 'threatening' signs warning kids out of the bar - all rather hypocritical), indifferent food (good some months, bad others). Always thought knocking through the separate bar was a bad move, but that was years ago. Also the loss of the boules court - that had been a lovely touch. And moaning neighbours (get a life, you live in a lovely place and next to a nice pub) which meant you got the hedges etc now fenced off (great for kids to play in and out of the way of the adults). Also a victim of its success as it was somewhat nicer when not quite so overcrowded as it gets on a nice day. I'll keep going as a lovely location, and a Paxton designed building, that unlike other treasures has not been trashed! |
Stevegrindlay
Joined 24-10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 15 July, 2007 - 09:35 pm: | |
Baggydave, you say of the Woodhouse that it was a "Paxton designed building". The only reference that I can find to this is in a book published in 1991 by Young's, who hold the original lease, and even they qualify it by saying "possibly". Apart from the few remains of the Crystal Palace, I am only aware of two surviving buildings in the area in which Paxton might have had a hand (the Kirkdale Institute and The Wood). My own feeling (based on no evidence whatsoever) is that, if there was an architect involved with the building, it would be Banks & Barry, who were responsible for a number of the buildings along the Dulwich side of Sydenham Hill. |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 15 July, 2007 - 10:14 pm: | |
The Perry Hill Gastropub, formerly the Two Brewers. No prizes for guessing its location. I went for a late afternon drink here on Saturday. Two pints of bitter and a medium glass of white wine £9.05, but it was good to see that the high prices hadn't discouraged a good diversity of drinkers: the patio table next to me (correction - two tables facing one another, bottoms on tables, feet on seats) was well populated with shaven headed lads in England polo shirts drinking their premium lager. Perhaps they were up from Bromley for the day. And perhaps they had already tried and eschewed the proper beer. The choice was all too predictably unimaginative: London Pride and the (increasing ubiquitous) Adnams. It was indifferently kept and I didn't finish it. Good grief. I mean why? Why bother spending a fortune on a pub makeover, putting on a fancy menu, setting the prices high, conjoining the terms 'gasto' and 'pub' presumably with the intention of pulling in those with discerning tastebuds and then serving such indifferent fare?
Interesting layout. Most of the outdoor seating was on raised decking at the back. I pitied the couple with the baby and pushchair who had to carry the chair up several steps outside to the only open entrance (at the front), squeeze through a narrow back door and then carry it up two further series of steps at the back. Heaven help any wheelchair users.
On the way home I stopped in at the Blythe for a palate cleansing pint of the Westerham. Still the best beer in SE23 by a country mile. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 15 July, 2007 - 10:34 pm: | |
Which pub around here serves the best draught Guinness? |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, 15 July, 2007 - 10:42 pm: | |
Same spot. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 16 July, 2007 - 04:44 pm: | |
Toffee, so glad you enjoyed your Saturday afternoon. Why don't you try my neck of the woods and the Forest Hill Tavern, sorry FHT. Sure this will be very much to your taste. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 17 July, 2007 - 09:07 pm: | |
Went to a 'pub' in the New Forest this weekend - this demonsrated why I have issues over pubs becoming restaurants! Charged restaurant prices without restaurant service and a passable if generic menu. We now are becoming overwhelmed but no doubt there must be a market in SE23 and beyond....
They do good toasties in the BHT |
Andy
Joined 23-02-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 18 July, 2007 - 11:04 am: | |
Unfortunately the toastie option in the Blythe Hill is no longer available. Con, the landlord is considering getting some posh crisps in to compete with the gastropubs. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, 18 July, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Suggest you start up a thread on the main site to reinstate the toastie at BHT. My friend Peter Winguard, and I, would love to have one. Peter is particularly depressed having found that the local conveniences had been turned into a real cottage.
Steven G - interested for a history of the Forest Hill Public Conveniences (seriously), and sorry I seem to have been lured into the Youngs (RIP) myth that the Woodhouse was Paxton designed. What about Wells Park? And what do you know about the MPT?? (MPH) |
Michael
Joined 04-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 July, 2007 - 11:03 am: | |
There has been a lot of discussion on this thread of the great BHT which inspired me to finally venture into SE6 for a pint. The shock of switching from the Honor Oak to this place was a little too much. I am told I went their on a bad night, it was pouring with rain and the place was pretty empty for a Saturday.
The decor would make any fake Irish pub envious and I never knew Forest Hill / Catford had a 'Little Dublin'. However, I have been to pubs in Dublin and they do not all have to smell of sweat and gents toilets (occasionally a little overpowering). I don't like pubs which have football everywhere you look especially on a Saturday night, to show two Spanish teams I have never heard of. And now that the smoking band is enforced it would not do any harm to wash the net curtains. The yellowness does not, in my opinion, add to character.
The beer was good, the staff were friendly and I can imagine that when it is a bit sunnier, busier, and cleaner, it is a nice pub with an excellent beer garden. But I think on a rainy evening in July I prefer some of the fine drinking establishments in SE23. |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 29 July, 2007 - 02:50 pm: | |
I understand a good time was had by all there the evening that Ireland beat pakistan in the cricket world cup.
Smokers have said that now that we cannot smell their tobacco smoke we will smell sweat, stale beer and cleaning chemicals! |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 30 July, 2007 - 04:47 pm: | |
Just here Annie. Perhaps you would like to now check out the Blythe Hill Tavern and report back; but watch out for unsavoury people like Michael and Andy |
Haylands
Joined 29-09-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, 31 July, 2007 - 01:21 pm: | |
Taking old/young Baggy's advice, I am posting on the acknowledged pub review thread with regards to our newest addition to SE London culinary delights, the Perry Hill.
My brother inlaw went in person last week to book a table for today (31st). He was told that the offer was not valid for today "as the letter quite clearly says offer ends 31st July". Now unfortunately my brother inlaw did not have the flyer (delivered house to house recently) at hand. Anyway it's arguable that when you say offer ends, your refer to that being the last day. Not the first day after the offer ends. Rather ambiguous, if you catch my drift. Apart from being rather pretentious the manager didn't see the easy remedy. ie understanding the obvious misunderstanding (through no fault of my brother inlaw) and make an exception. Now if this had happened I would be singing their praises. They having bent over backwards to accommodate even before we patronised to place. It annoys me that these people who come in to a community to start a business, who should be courting the locals, instead alienate them. When will these people learn that they won't be around long if they continue to act in this way. Needless to say we didn't book a table, and won't do in the near future.
As it happens when we read the flyer again, it actuals states offer runs from 23rd to 31st. Now if he thinks that that that means offer ends on 29th (no food on Monday 30th), it would be like Southern selling tickets from Guildford to London and dropping you offer at New Cross Gate. Mind you, I shouldn't be giving Southern ideas. |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 31 July, 2007 - 01:45 pm: | |
Hi haylands
I quite agree with you but which establishment are you talking about. The previous entry was about the Blythe Hill Tavern ( somewhere I believe I still have to visit after 58 years in the locality ), however the special offers to which you refer do not seem to be something they would offer |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 31 July, 2007 - 01:46 pm: | |
Sorry Haylands
I should read things fully. Many apologies. The infamous Perry Hill which seems to be full of wild children and patio heaters. Say no more |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 31 July, 2007 - 06:58 pm: | |
Good, I am glad you are coming back to the fold. Annie, of course you can start whatever thread you would like (webmaster permitting); but this is the King of all threads. Mental note; must check out the Two Brewers refurb soon. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 31 July, 2007 - 09:03 pm: | |
'Wild Children and Patio Heaters'. Theres a great name for a band....or an Ian McEwan novel. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 03 August, 2007 - 09:29 pm: | |
Would you Adam and Eve it? I'm checking out the Nags Head (on line) in Peckham, despite appearances rated a healthy 7 out of 10, and I come across reference to the mythical Nag's Head in Only Fools and Horses. According to www.trotters-independent-traders.co.uk/pictures/realworld.htm sweet football association was filmed in Peckham, in fact not even Sarf London. Most of it in Bristol, some in Dorset. Closest they came was East Acton (tower blocks) and Ruislip - one of the pub venues. They couldn't even use the propper gangster cemeteries in the area for the burial of Grandad. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 03 August, 2007 - 09:30 pm: | |
A very boring posting Baggy, even parakeets are more interesti....... (snore) |
Nasaroc
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, 07 August, 2007 - 02:22 pm: | |
The campaign to save the Greyhound, Sydenham, has made it onto TV today - an excellent piece on the BBC lunchtime news with longer versions scheduled for this evening between 6.30-7, and at 10.30; also pieces scheduled for ITV London Tonight between 6-6.30 and sometime between 10.30-11.30. Our local CAMRA contact has highlighted the appalling local statistic - 9 pubs lost in the Sydenham-Catford area within the last six months, and 40% of all Lewisham pubs lost since the early 90s. Please watch - and if you haven't yet done so come round to the Kirkdale Bookshop (opposite the pub) and sign our Save the Greyhound petition. Annabel McLaren, Sydenham Society |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 07 August, 2007 - 10:45 pm: | |
Thanks Nasaroc - I hope others will sign, it would be a great shame to lose such a wonderful building. Despite all the damage done under bad management in recent years you can still find some gems in the place. All credit to Karloff as well |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, 08 August, 2007 - 10:13 pm: | |
Boris or Doris? |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 August, 2007 - 12:55 pm: | |
I agree should be saved. I saw Pat doing fine work on TV.
I have not gone in the Pub for many years. Does tend to attract clientelle of a certain nature. No decent beer for years.
If it is saved it should be turned into a proper pub for people without tatoo's |
Brian
Joined 18-04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 August, 2007 - 01:04 pm: | |
Also look at the pubs that have closed
Man of Kent ( words fail me )
Wetherspoons in Southend. To be honest surprised this closed. They always seem to make money. But tended to be lager palace ( Seems pubs that mainly sell lager over traditional pubs attract anti social element .
Duke of Edinburgh ( seen better days )
Only gem amongst the closures was The Rutland. The landlord who sadly died about 2 years ago was great , beer was great , music great and punters friendly. I appreciate his widow did not want to carry on any more , she did a wonderful job when she was landlady.
It is a major shame no one was able to take pub over as a going concern.
I am surprised the local authority authorised change of use. That is where the campaign should go , to the good councillors of LBC. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 09 August, 2007 - 05:14 pm: | |
They can apparently demolish the Greyhound as it is a detached building - which is what the developers intend to do. Developers can also pay lip service to planning, as in many incidents the local authority will not think it in the public interest to enforce. Not that I am acusing either the developer of being so cynical nor LBL as being ineffective, of course.
Good post Brian, and of course not all pubs are worth saving - this one is for the historical importance. In the run up to 2012, and with our great new links to Stratford, surely an ideal hotel again! |
Sherwood
Joined 30-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 10 August, 2007 - 04:40 pm: | |
I assume pubs will pay NNDR, which goes into a central fund. Lewisham gets a share from this. If residential properties replace commercial premises, the residents pay council tax, which all goes to Lewisham Council. So it is not surpising that Lewisham allows pubs to be closes and replaced by residentila properties. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, 10 August, 2007 - 09:09 pm: | |
However Lewisham Council is effectively us, the local electorate, as opposed to an independent concern- their money is our money, so to speak. The other side of the coin is overall economic regeneration and stability. Vacant run down pubs don;t serve any purpose. Our concerns posted here are probably the same, and we have the same objective and interest in maintaining a lively town centre, but there are a range of views as to how to get there. Mine is still to let the market decide and to allow flexibility for change of use as and when required. We talk about greedy developers but overall developer profit is not that great- the bulk of the profit tends to go to the landowners not the developers. The other issue is the lack of housing in London per se - there is a real shortage and despite changes to the planning system supply is well below demand. Do we therefore want to be so rigid as to prevent suitable and reasonable alternatives in line with market demand and social need just so that we can add to the already long list of vacant eyesores? The Tigers Head pubs ( one near Homebase and the other at Lee Green) have both been vacant for a long time, as is the Green Man on Bromley Road. The latter was a great music venue in the 80's but fell out of favour as the local population changed- I think it briefly became a Beefeater or Harvester. I do think the fate of this particular pub speaks volumes about the need to move on. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 10 August, 2007 - 10:28 pm: | |
Perfect markets = well informed consumers. Big players distort markets be it the supermarkets deciding what we want or the brewers telling us to add ice to our cider or lime to our tasteless lager. When it's gone it's gone and no 'oh dear'. Isn't Halifax Street nice, why didn't they redevelop this like the rest of the early Victorian properties in Sydenham? Why list or save any property when it could be 'better' used for housing. And as for the free market - why can't that serve the housing market? And if you can't afford to buy or rent somewhere nice then Peter Rackman can find you somewhere.
Knew that bluffers guide to socialogy and economics would come in useful. |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 11 August, 2007 - 12:43 am: | |
What's the point in living in an area if it doesn't have decent pubs? This utter, utter nonsense about letting the market decide and flexibility of use shows an appalling lack of sensibility. Many of our pubs are great historical monuments and an intrinsic part of our culture. If a pub lasts a hundred years the market has decided: it should the be listed and become an historical monument. Housing shortages will not be solved by converting the odd pub. Perhaps we can knock down all of UDB and build high-rise flats there instead. Would anybody notice or be signing petitions against that? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 11 August, 2007 - 11:41 pm: | |
TJ, this is happening in UDB already - some people are building houses on the side of their existing houses and/or on top of their houses. Happy to show you round some time - signs that the Russian money and other parts of new democratic Europe is also coming our way as well comrade. As you rightly point out we want more accommodation happy to start a petition for turning the Grove into appartments, now that is one place that surely wont be missed.
Whoops I'll have Hilltop onto me for making inappropriate comments about other cultures. Shame on you BD |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2007 - 09:05 am: | |
Blimey. Was the Greyhound really a 'great historical monument and an instrinsic part of our culture?'.
The key is in the word decent -there are still many decent pubs in both Sydenham and Forest Hill and the ' indecent' ones are either being turned around or biting the dust. The Greyhound is going but the one further down (can't remember the name) has been bought and turned around by the owner of the Dartmouth Arms. Does this appear in the statistics cited by Nasaroc. Its what people want and where people will spend their dosh. If the Greyhound had potential as a business it would still be functioning as a pub.
The Catford pubs ie the Green Man and the Tigers Head have been vacant for some time as they did simply not make money as pubs as the local populace which clearly changed in demographics and were not interested in what they had to offer. Sometimes it is simply not viable to continue with the existing use. We had relatives staying last week from France and they wanted to go out for a beer one evening- I ran through the list of 7 pubs within walking distance of our house and they chose one - not including the 4 pubs which I did not recommend they go to. So I personally have 11 pubs within walking distance of my home and at the rate we usually go out for a pint it will take us all year to get around them all. How is this inadequate exactly. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
.. and how come you all have the time and money to go out drinking so much.... |
Stevegrindlay
Joined 24-10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2007 - 06:21 pm: | |
Roz, I would refer you the the Greyhound thread on Sydenham Town:
http://tinyurl.com/3c96fp
This has been a vigorous, at times heated, discussion on the merits, failings, history and hopes of Sydenham residents about the future of the site. The consensus of those who live in the area is generally in favour of protecting the building, including one quite unique and spectacular feature, while accepting the need for housing (of high quality) on the site of the car park.
The Greyhound does have potential as a business and was, according the the recent lessees, making money until the point of its closure. Neglect and bad management for more than a decade do not justify demolishing an important local landmark. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2007 - 09:28 pm: | |
Perhaps, but it surely is the right of the owner as an individual to make the business decisions that are right for them, including selling the premises for a more advantageous use if this suits their purposes. It may have been making money for the lessees but not for the owner, as a pub, and perhaps not even breaking even. Who knows. Are the good residents of Sydenham going to cover the losses of various local businesses?
This is a public outcry on what is a private business matter for the pub. The focus should be on the social environmental and economic impact of any redevelopment proposals, not on the private business dealings of the pub owners. |
Stevegrindlay
Joined 24-10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, 12 August, 2007 - 10:55 pm: | |
The owner is not an individual, it is a small group of businessmen who have acquired the site solely to get a high return as quickly as possible. Nothing else matters. Should we just meekly accept their right to do that?
For more than 280 years the Greyhound has had a variety of owners and tenants, most of whom have treated it as no more than a source of income and some of whom have actually treated it with respect. None, until now, has sought to demolish it entirely.
"It may have been making money for the lessees but not for the owner" - how do you know that? All we can be sure of is that their rewards will be even greater if they build a high density development as quickly as possible. To many of us that does not justify demolition and, of course, they can still make a profit by developing the car park
The Greyhound has a history and has played a part in the social and cultural life of Sydenham for generations. To put it into perspective, and I hope this won't cause offense, it was first licensed 60 years before Forest Hill came into existence. |
Nasaroc
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 13 August, 2007 - 09:57 am: | |
Roz - your position is one that not even the most ultra right wing marketeer would hold with a straight face. You say that "it surely is the right of the owner as an individual to make the business decisions that are right for them, including selling the premises for a more advantageous use if this suits their purposes".
Really? So any business in Fh or Sydenham can close and build blocks of flats on the site of their premises? If that were the case we'd be knocked down in the rush! Even businesses making money would be tempted by a few million quid to shut up shop and sell their land.
Most people in SE26 take the side of the local community against greedy developers. I'm disappointed to see that you line up with the view that the "market is always right" no matter what the consequences for local business and well-loved local landmarks. Please learn simple lessons from history - if the "market is always right" view prevailed, for example, most of historic Covent Garden would have been flattened.
Thankfully, our local MP, councillors, the Sydenham Traders organisation and those local people rapidly signing the Save the Greyhound petition don't agree with you Roz. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 13 August, 2007 - 06:46 pm: | |
I'm putting forward my point of view the same as others have done. Clearly some would prefer not to see any balanced argument put forward if it contradicts their own or shows up weaknesses in their selective presentation of statistics.
I have not said that the market is always right in all circumstances.
All development is subject to planning which is subject to public consultation.Therein lies the opportunity for democratic protest and decision making. The point remains that the owners of the Greyhound have rights too, and have done nothing wrong in the context of planning or the law( as far as I know). Making a profit per se is not necessarily a crime. Yes, we should meekly or otherwise accept the right of a group of businessmen to get a high return asap as we have no jurisdiction or right to judge them outside the planning system. This building is not listed. The statement that nothing else matters is not correct, as they will no doubt have to comply with the planning system including the increasing targets for energy efficiency, a proportion of affordable housing, and no doubt other Section 106 requirements including perhaps payments towards highways. Ulitmately provided enough consideration goes into the design there will be by default quite a lot of community gain from a residential development on this site. Developers take risks which can often lead to losses- lets not forget this or the indisputable fact that we are dependent on them to invest in our cities. |
Nasaroc
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, 19 August, 2007 - 02:06 pm: | |
Roz - You tell us that you are merely voicing your opinion. Thankfully your views simply don't accord with the majority of local opinion either from politicians or from local people. There are currently over 1,000 signatures on the petition (it's been running for just over a week)opposing the demolition of the Greyhound. You can sign the petition at the Kirkdale Bookshop, Floorzone, Well Being, Makepeace Chemist, The Pharmacy, Smart Chaps, Paulro's, the House of Curtains, White's Pet Shop,Milanos coffee shop (and when it reopens next week after holidays)Sema's Cafe.
Feeling is running very high on this issue in Sydenham. People want housing on this site but the pub to remain - a perfectly possible solution which would allow the developer a good return. Locals simply do not believe, as you do, that knocking down the Greyhound will result in "community gain". I was talking to a shopkeeper yesterday, a man who has barely been in this country for more than half a dozen years, who is incensed by the imminent destruction of the Greyhound and told me that he thought that this was detroying his heritage - a wide-spread view in this community.
I run a business locally. I am not against profit nor developers making profit. I would be loathe to continue running any business that cannot make a profit (absolutely not the case for the Greyhound). What I am against are developers buying up landmark building like pubs, offering sums of money the owner simply cannot resist and then knocking down our heritage assets.
You wave around the planning process as if it were some recompense against such actions. But bear in mind that any developer can knock down a non-listed building or destroy the interior without any planning permission so as to make it unusable - and that many have done so locally. Section 106 agreements (where money is donated by a developer for local improvements) are peanuts - a pub site will typically produce less than £20,000 for such purposes, enough to retarmac about 15 yards of a local road. We're all for housing on the site (and affordable housing) but leave the Greyhound building alone! |
Rodney
Joined 20-08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2007 - 12:50 pm: | |
I am disturbed by recent postings by Roz about pub closures. She seems to want us to accept that these closures are reasonable, because the pubs are no longer viable. She writes that, regarding the Tiger's Head and the Green Man, it is 'time to move on'; and 'If the Greyhound had potential it would still be functioning as a pub'. She suggests that the reason these pubs are closing is because local demographics are changing and local people no longer want to visit these pubs.
I wish to respectfully inform her that none of this is true. Local people DO want to visit well-run, trouble-free pubs that serve good beer and food. The problem is that many of these pubs have NOT been well-managed, have attracted an unsavoury clientele and as a result most of the public has stayed away. It has been proven time and again (eg. the Dolphin), that if you run a pub properly, the public WILL return.
Simply saying that pubs have had their day and allowing them to be converted into flats is NOT the answer. Even if we accept that lots of new housing is required, the answer is not to knock down all our old pubs, which are part of what makes this country special and unique. |
Roz
Joined 17-03-2005
| | Posted on Monday, 20 August, 2007 - 06:17 pm: | |
I do wish people would not make things up or twist my words. I have not said that ' pubs have had their day'. What I have said is that some pubs are simply surplus to requirements. As of yesterday, the Tigers Head at Lee Green appears to be still on the market yet has been closed for several years. Therefore it was not forced out of business by some greedy developer, it closed because it did not make money, and has stayed closed because no one finds it viable to take it on and turn it around. Ergo, pubs in the main close because they are not viable, because people in the suburbs do not go to pubs in the way they used to, and local markets can only take so many before saturation occurs.
What I find bizarre is the continual portrayal of all developers as the root of all evil and up to skullduggery 24/7,and that there is some ' plot' to undermine British society by conniving to acquire pubs and knock them down. The notion that 'all old pubs are being knocked down' is not correct either as can be seen in Forest Hill, where as I have illustrated before, there are 11 pubs within walking distance of my home, which is effectively from Forest Hill town centre. How many pubs per square mile are reasonable? We hear on the evening news that Lewisham is running out of watering hole yet cannot fathom on what basis this statement is made. I went to two Forest Hill pubs last Friday evening, although they were busy, neither of them were packed to the rafters.
I agree that there is a world of difference between well run pubs and those that are not, however what seems to have been overlooked here is that the ' unsavoury' clientele discussed here are also probably local people who clearly had their needs met by the Greyhound. Essentially what is sought after here is the 'right' sort of pub to attract the 'right' sort of person. And if that's not a right of centre view, then what is.
Just for clarification, Section 106 obligations are rarely peanuts on residential development sites. In addition to highways contributions such as this, developers have to provide 35-50% affordable housing on any site with more than 15 units, and increasingly much of this is with lower grant levels , and in some boroughs, no grant at all is permitted. This results in the developer having to fully subsidise social housing, which is quite a drain on resources. Additionally they need to meet stringent requirements in respect of energy efficiency as part of the planning conditions, and these can alone be very onerous and expensive. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 30 August, 2007 - 07:19 pm: | |
Where were you Rodney, Nasroc and Steve Grindley when they were tearing down my local the Moore Park Tavern? Surely its association with Camberwell Cemetary, and more importantly Joe Orton's "Entertaining Mr Sloane' was good enough reason to give it historic status. Well it wasn't actally ripped down, so I don't mean lying in front of the bulldozers, but standing in the way of the painters and decorators would have been a good gesture. A certain Mr BD was even on the Robert Elms afternoon show on Radio London suggesting that this may have been the famous South London pub to have doubled up as a funeral parlour.
Unfortunately I was too young to have drunk here but I do recall the Greyhound with fondness druing its early fall from grace. It was a great music and comedy venue even if Vic Reeves has a selective memory about the late 80s and his time there.
And despite my irreverence hope that I have done my little bit.
Back to the MPT, some really exciting news (very much in the past tense I am afraid) with and a connection to a famous author coming up soon. Nothing to do with Coronation Street. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 03 September, 2007 - 08:12 pm: | |
For those of you interested in Joe Orton, despite him not living in Sarf London, there is a documentary tonight on BBC 4. Hopefully they will tour where his film was made, and come to Wood Vale. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, 04 September, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
Clearly I was the only one watching BBC4 last night (an audience of about one is typical). I think I saw a shot of the low rise on Wood Vale. The cemetary plot was supposed to resemble Joe Orton's grotty childhood home (no one can describe our cemetary as grotty) but the camera did not pan onto the MPT. Perhaps Steve Grindley can tell us how much of the cemetary was used for Joe Orton's 'Entertaining Mr Sloane'. I'll keep you waiting on my other exciting news.
Those of you who look at the other side will note that the Hob is being done up - well publicised including that freebie mag that most of us should have. Despite the efforts to make it popular, and I have been pushing the comedy for many a year, it never quite worked. The Pie and Kilderkin before was similar, although did get large crowds at the weekend. Be interesting to see how it goes. |
Kathy_and_dave
Joined 05-07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, 05 September, 2007 - 10:52 am: | |
Will be interesting to see how the new Hob turns out. With the surrounding pubs each targeted at a particular clientele (don't see that much overlap between the Dartmouth and the Capitol...) I wonder if they will make more of the upstairs space - could Forest Hill support a King's Head type theatre pub?
As a model I would also think of the Enterprise at Chalk Farm - very busy these days, but a reliably good pint and a proper pub in most ways. |
Toffeejim
Joined 27-11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 08 September, 2007 - 01:47 pm: | |
The Hob has traditionally been a bit of an odd pub in that it hasn't sold beer. It did sell Wychwoods by the bottle but, as that could be bought at the offy, I wondered why bother going to a pub to do so? The pub did begin selling normal beer about a couple of years back but I never got to taste this either. I tried to do so one evening, having asked the Eastern European barmaid if could try before buying. But she didn't seem to think it reasonable request and asked asked me to leave. I'm still not sure why this happened although it may have had something to do with the fact that I was in the company of someone from the West Midlands.
Perhaps the refurb will be on a retro theme: dividing the space into two or three bars, installing etched glass windows and studded red velvet banquettes, throwing away all the board games and putting in a bar billiards table. Oh, and putting in some proper beer. Any takers? |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, 08 September, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
Kathy and Dave - is this our first shared address? How sweet (sorry you can't tell whether I am being mean or being genuine). Check out the Brockley Jack, wonderful pub theatre, dreadful pub proper (although great building). Where is Chalk Farm - somewhere in Kent? Went there once but didn't like it.
Ah, TJ, with your liking of people from the West Mids perhaps we could share an address too. |
Robwinton
Joined 07-06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, 08 September, 2007 - 11:49 pm: | |
Chalk Farm is the non-posh, wrong-side-of-the-tracks, neighbour to Primrose Hill, didn'tcha know, dahling?
Bar billiards. That would be great, as long as there was somewhere I could place my wine glass whilst lining up the shot! |
Nasaroc
Joined 03-06-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, 13 September, 2007 - 09:46 am: | |
Greyhound Update!
Great news - the Greyhound building has been saved! At a meeting at Lewisham town hall last Wednesday the Mayor responded to the request of the Sydenham Society to designate Cobbs Corner and the surrounding streets a conservation area with the Greyhound and the Cobbs department store at its heart. In effect, the council have thrown a 'cordon sanitaire' around the pub. This is just the start though - now we have the challenge of getting it re-opened with a good management. You can read more about this surprising turn of events in the News Shopper here: http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/search/display.var.1674193.0.victory_in_fight_to_save_historic_pub.php |
Perryman
Joined 12-12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, 13 September, 2007 - 11:27 am: | |
The developers will have to go through the right proceedures now:
Strip the insides out to make the building unusable.
Leave the building insecure to encourage 'the arsonists'.
Do not maintain the building especially the roof so it becomes unsafe and eventually an eyesore. |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, 13 September, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
As per the old Reservoir site off Honor Oak Road
Hopefully as the Greyhound is more visible this will not be the case! Still a very positive step.
Experience on the Crystal Palace top site may also be of interest, but in this case the problem was as much to do with Bromley Council (don't get me started) as the developer |
Baggydave
Joined 19-05-2004
| | Posted on Friday, 14 September, 2007 - 07:06 pm: | |
Exciting news just in the blackboard at the DA has gone missing. I worked in Jersey many years ago and that was about the level of excitement you got reported in the local paper. |
Nevermodern
Joined 09-02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, 17 September, 2007 - 01:26 pm: | |
Thank goodness we've got baggydave's charming third-person posts to liven things up. |
